Bottom shape - How the hell........

[moya]

Okay puppies, i am about to embark, once again, on the quest to find "that" or "one of those" boards.
I have narrowed down my plan shape and rails and tail design, however, bottom shape is still eluding me.

The search -

Do i simply spend $ and hassle friends to try each and every bottom shape i can get my hands on, or is there some simple info or techniques on how to eliminate or consolidate- eg - im more of a front foot rider etc.

You see, as i have to try different boards with different bottom shapes everything else will be different on each individual board too. How do i focus on or isolate the performance differences of the bottom shape, in general?

Also - How do boxy rails differ to a mid rail in feel & performance..... fong?

[fong]

im more of a front foot rider etc.

Also - How do boxy rails differ to a mid rail in feel & performance..... fong?

i'd like see u on a reverse v....MY defintion of that being.....normal vee ...just moved forward to the mid point a possiable alternative being a HUGE concave which means a vee will occur anyway near the stringer u can go longer with the reverse v....huge concave v is very stiff....u need scarfice length to gain mobility

god...the rails the most importent bit
i'm only TOOO happy to put bit effort and research into this

but too tie u over...i'd recken boxy rails suit beach breaks....normal surfing conditions

where as a mid rail...develops more speed better lines on a point/reef break type wave do we all agree :?

p.s i got a new fav thread i'll do some research and get back to u with more rail info

[mad]

Bottom shapes, when in doubt - Keep It Simple.

Don't stuff with the rocker, only if you know what you want, otherwise keep it central and let the shaper use the KIS plan. I tried on a couple of boards and wasted my time and money (i.e. the WOFTAM plan)

Same with the bottom plan. Occy used to surf flat bottoms - full KIS syndrome that's how he liked his boards.

Nowadays single concaves are pretty standard and are a fine bit of gear. Tweak 'em through the fins, doubles or v through the fins. Mid point v's like fong is describing can be tricky, and goes back to KIS.

If you really want to experience a different bottom shape, you can't go past a 6 channel bottom

[Natho]

If in doubt re bottom shape, talk it through and leave it up to your shaper. I personally find that when in doubt, keep it minimal ie not too deep if you are using concave. The 'trend' at the moment is for single concaves, however it appears some of the pros (eg Mick Fanning) are now asking for some double to be introduced back for more hold and control.
Once again talk it over with your shaper, however rocker and plane shape can have more to do with a board shaped for a front footed surfer. ie often front footed surfers benefit from lower rocker. Anyway I am no expert so it would be best to talk with one.

I understand that flat bottoms can be a fairly safe bet, however no one seems to surf them these days?? Is it just that they are not the 'trend'?

I find single concaves good in smaller waves, however once it gets a little bigger I find they can be harder to contol. I also ride boxy rails for smaller to mid sized Sydney type surf. I tend to surf hard off my rails ( I am shorter and stocky) and I find a boxy rail more forgiving in that they are harder to catch and tend to 'pop' and recover better for me. I also find a boxy rail works better when the conditions are less than glassy.
As Mad said, if in doubt keep it simple. The best boards I have had have been exactly that. SIMPLE

[Hawkeye]

^^^^ Great advice.

[MakoShark]

I spent the morning measuring up the bottoms of my two SA 6'3 x 18 1/2 x 2 3/8 rounded pins with single concave boards to try & figure out why they go so differently to each other.

One is standard & the other has a low entry nose (LEN) but they both have the same plan shape & tail rocker.

The standard one is loose & fast thru turns but bogs down on flat sections (I refuse to bunny hop). It has a tight turning arc & responds well rail to rail. Generally requires a lot of effort to keep it going in fat slow conditions but is really lively when steep & running.

LEN is kind of the opposite. Its tight in the tail with a larger turning arc, motors thru fat sections, heaps faster in fat slow conditions but is difficult to turn on steep, running waves.



They both have FCS & I've tried half a dozen different fin sets in each.

I didn't measure volume distribution but they are both a bit different.

The only differences I can measure:
1. Standard nose kicks 1/2" over 12 - 15". From there back they are the same.
2. The concave is slightly deeper on LEN, especially between your feet. We're only talking 1/16" here & there. The rocker is a bit flatter here also.

The standard board paddles & catch's waves better than LEN - which doesn't make sense.

This surfboard shaping business is a mystical art. How a combination of minute differences can amount to, for me, large differences in performance.

Its driving me nuts. They are chalk & cheese & I've gotta give one back. Which one?

Now I don't expect an answer from this forum but thought it might be of interest to moya & anyone out there who is considering a new stick. Go to a shaper who knows his craft. Speak in terms of performance. let him work out the details. If it doesn't work out, sell it (probably perfect for someone else) & try again. That magic board is definately worth the effort once your've found it.

[g_u_m_b_y]

what are channels like?

[Natho]

Just from the info you have given g-u-m-b-y I would imagine much of the difference between these two boards you have suggested would be in the rocker. It appears the board with the lower entry rocker is the one motoring through flat sections which makes sense. The lower rocker is giving you more drive and planning area (board to water surface contact). The trade off is that it may not be as loose as a board with a little more rocker. That's often the trade off between more rocker and less rocker. A good shaper however can minimise this trade off. I have a 5'11 shaped by Michael Baron (Byrne California shaper). This board has low entry and tail rocker, yet is still fairly loose. I put this down to the experience of the shaper in knowing how and where to work the concave with the rocker.

The deeper concave will give you more lift and speed, however the trade off will be that it will be harder to control in more powerful waves.

Most elements of surfboard design have some sort of trade off.

Just goes to show no two boards are the same (unless it is a mass produced board pumped out of a factory in Thailand).

[Natho]

Sorry g-u-m-b-y my last post was actually for MakoShark.

To answer your question Channels can be a good thing. My experience is that they need a longer reef or point break style wave as the take a little time to wind up and kick in. Once they get going its a bit like having a mini jet engine under your board. The other thing is that they work best in clean galssy conditions where they can glide accross a smooth surface and do their thing.

You don't see many Cannels these days and I think one of the reasons may be that they can be hard to shape and sand (to get right) and can be time consuming to produce.

[Beanpole]

If in doubt re bottom shape, talk it through and leave it up to your shaper. I personally find that when in doubt, keep it minimal ie SIMPLE

Go the minimal
8'6" zuccini models rule
Simple
Boxy rails are good