Firewire Surfboards

[ric_vidal]

p.s think lic lacky touched on this but I thought I'd make it obvious

So after all my quality diatribe you think they needed help from you?

Me thinks the money goes into all manner of things, marketing, advertising so Nicknack can afford clothes and pasta for the Golden Child, sponsorship, institutional investors, R&D, production facilities, distributors, shareholders...

Another story here we go you’re all thinking... my nephew just bought a three-quarter size 150 cc motor bike over the intramanet for $950 delivered to the door with some minor assembly required. Started 3rd kick and all things considered seems like a good machine. Point is, how come every other ‘brand’ bike costs many times more? ^^that’s why^^

The one thing most boardmakers don’t do well is self promote because at they are generally in the business because they like it and it can be a ‘lifestyle’ choice. Somehow I just can’t see Rex (RMS) packing boxes.

[Clif]

I just can’t see Rex (RMS) packing boxes.

Bloody snobs. I packed boxes for a large surfboard manufacturer for years. Shapers always thought they were better than us

Cue: THE REVOLUTION!!

For decades as shapers and pro-surfers stole our beer and dropped-in on us at the point we quietly beavered away at our engineering, design, creative indusries, IT degrees. they called us nerds ... but we had a dream borne of deep dark desires for vengeance.

They thought they had it all stitched up, these self-proclaimed gods of surfing, but in our secret hideaway deep beneath the superbank (which we engineered to keep people away from our waves) we formed an axis of evil.

NOW we emerge with our array of secret weapons, trademarks, patented materials, and red-headed robots that speak marketeese Armed to the teeth with gullible investors and cutting edge marketing ploys we're going to take over your pathetic little lives ... cue evil laugh and stroke of a kitty ... WE ARE YOUR FUTURE. Bend over before your new masters and prepare to be ....

ps. we have also taken over all stocks of lubricants throughout the world ... so this is going to hurt you bastards.

The surfing Worl dis now ours ... OURS! I tell you


ahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahahahah

"Clif, your dinners ready"

"Shut up mum, I'm takin' over the woooooorld"

"Oh, not again dear"

"Jesus mum!"

[PeteW]

Ahh the world of business and brands is not for everyone….I think I will leave aside the discussion on where the money goes, though I can assure you it is not into my pocket.

A couple of points, which are again general learning from other markets, not what I would like to happen. First the low price end of the market will be very busy. Cheap no brands (unknown brands) will flood the market as they are already. Existing local manufacturers will have to use their brands to gain a price premium. One thing that may be hard to understand is that the actual quality and performance of boards at the cheap end will continue to improve. As an outside example look at say TVs sold in Aldi versus big brand names. Big brand names are reducing their prices as the $100 Aldi TV works pretty good. Why, because they are all made in the same factory anyway. Except some high quality but cheap competition for Surftech too.

Ski and snow technology has changed a lot, I have spent the last 20 years working as a ski guide in Europe, still miss every Aust summer.

But the really interesting thing about Burton is that together with Sims they created a new way to get down a mountain. They created snowboarding. That was a major disruption to the ski industry, and has changed skis, clothes and even the resorts. The trends we are chatting about show the surfboard industry is mature and ready for a major disruption. Firewire may be a better surfboard but it is still a surfboard as we know it. What we are waiting for is a better (or very different) way to ride waves! The boogie board dare I say it was this but the Clark monopoly helped to stop the technology changing the way surfboards are made. I don’t know what this major disruption will be….but think it will be a something related to flex, changing shapes dramatically, with fins in other places. That is why snowboards and kiteboards etc are interesting.

So Ric that’s the challenge, not how to make a better surfboard but how to make a better way to ride a wave….any ideas?

[Nick Carroll]

ric I don't get your whole thing about "choice". There's more choice for a board buyer today than ever before in surfing history. Partly this is because of boardmakers trying new materials and new boardmaking systems. The existence of SurfTech does not preclude the existence of a custom boardbuilder. Likewise the development of Firewire or S-Core or whatever.

What seems pretty obvious to me is that surfboard design has reached the limits of traditional board-building materials, probably did so a few years back, and if the sport's gonna continue to progress (as opposed to "grow"), the successful use of some new materials may be one of the triggers for that progression. So might some actual rigorous spec pressure testing of boards under performance conditions -- which no boardmaker to date has been able to afford, nor has had the expertise to carry out. (This may be something Burton can bring to board design, they've been doing it with snowboards and skis for heaps.)

New materials can lead to new design fired by the desire of good surfers to find new lines on waves.

Down the line none of these new boardmaking techniques will succeed unless they find a serious groove in the sport. Despite your comment re cosmetics, surfboards aren't lipstick, they have to be able to survive the ocean and their riders' many failings, and allow said riders to feel an ongoing sense of stoke, part of which comes from a sense of advancing your skills, part also from riding more and more testing waves. At the top end of the sport they have to enable their riders to win world titles and ride Pipe to the maximum of their ability. Let the ocean sort 'em out -- and if some new material computer-cut assembly line board ends up blowing your custom PU out of the water, get on it and ride the thing!!

[ric_vidal]

ric I don't get your whole thing about "choice".

My “choice” thing is in regard to the present crop of mass produced models offered by the likes of Surftech and Salomon. I suspect, and I realise this hasn’t been determined, that Firewire will take the same route.

Nick, didn’t you say you had tried one and it wasn’t your normal specs? Well what happens if they go into production and NEVER make one to YOUR specs or personal preference?

I’m sorry I realise I am left-field in many things and I’m certainly not in the demographic, but the boards on offer don’t appeal to me and I think they are premium priced. I have no fear for my board building aspirations nor do I think I am clinging to the past.

New design/technology is fantastic, bring it on, but can’t I have what I want?

Hope this clarifies, remember Nicknack, I’m a designer not a writer.

[ric_vidal]

So Ric that’s the challenge, not how to make a better surfboard but how to make a better way to ride a wave….any ideas?

Wish I’d said that teach Nicknack a thing or two

Pete, I think I have run out of steam if had a massive bankroll I’d tinker and explore possibilities to my heart’s content. The whole thing is just something I am passionate about and I’ll quietly do what I think is beneficial for people who jump on one of my boards.

[Nick Carroll]

Nick, didn’t you say you had tried one and it wasn’t your normal specs? Well what happens if they go into production and NEVER make one to YOUR specs or personal preference?

well I was trying to resist writing more about the firewire thing but from what I've been told by those involved, it seems as if you'll be able to do either: buy from a store or custom order precisely to spec. In this way and in the performance feel of the materials they're planning to go a different road from SurfTech.

[ric_vidal]

well I was trying to resist writing more about the firewire thing but from what I've been told by those involved, it seems as if you'll be able to do either: buy from a store or custom order precisely to spec. In this way and in the performance feel of the materials they're planning to go a different road from SurfTech.

Thank you Nick, but in some ways you skilfully dodged the question. Might have to by the publication just for this story. When’s it hit the stands?

Forget about Firewire for a moment what if some new technological breakthrough, because that is more what you were talking about, hits the water and it is not available in your preferred specs and just a range of models like snowboards, Surftech... do you give up everything you thought you new about what was right for you?

This is surely consumer choice, oui/non?

[collnarra]

It's worth noting that they haven't gone to custom production yet. The early production boards available in the US are essentially stock.

There's nothing in the process, at least from my conversations with Burger, that prevents them being custom built.

What's also interesting is that they're setting up production facilities in the US, Australia and Asia. This would seem to indicate that they're planning both mass production and custom production.

I still question the overall business model and I don't really believe that they have it tied up in patent protection. If it was patented, then the logical thing would be to offer the technology on a license basis to board makers. Rusty and Channel Islands, for example, already offer a wide variety of construction technologies, from PU through to EPS, AVISO and surftech. Adding "FireWire Construction" would make sense.

It would also make sense for the firewire shareholders - instead of making a small number of boards yourself, take a cut from a much larger number being built.

regardless, this is interesting tech and I'm really keen to see what an accomplished, unbiased surfer has to say after having ridden one.

[PeteW]

Thanks Ric....and despite all this very interesting intellectual discussion I still love handmade boards....maybe you can do one for me!

[ric_vidal]

There's nothing in the process, at least from my conversations with Burger, that prevents them being custom built.

Can you entice Bert Burger to make a guest appearance on this thread Col?

[ric_vidal]

Thanks Ric....and despite all this very interesting intellectual discussion I still love handmade boards....maybe you can do one for me!

Be careful what you wish for Pete

[oldman]

So why go from a situation of infinite choice at a good price to limited choice at a premium? They are like cosmetic companies selling blue sky!

So many interesting points in this debate. Too many people here who know so much more about the design issue then me that I will try to avoid giving an opinion.

However, the choice issue is very interesting as there has been a number of economic studies done on this very subject. The results - too much choice for the consumer paralyses them, leaving them walking out of the store without buying what they were looking for.

Exactly how many brands of custom made toothpaste do we really need in a supermarket? Are you and I sufficiently knowledgeable about toothpaste to work out which one is doing a better job, or is the almost infinite choice a bit of a con because they all work much the same?

Do the demonstrable outcomes from rigorous experiments into human behaviour apply to sufboards as they do to the majority of consumer products?

I don't know, I'm just throwing it out there. Experiments in human behaviour suggest that offering a limited choice increases your sales. Go figure!

The Economics profession is predicated on the assumption that humans are rational beings making rational decisions. Individuals think they make rational decisions. Experiments in human economic behaviours show that this is not the case. It is possible that the rational design arguments espoused in this forum are largely irrelevant to the consumer - even the consumers who think they make rational decisions about their surfboards.

Ona different theme, how many of us 'push' our surfboards to their physical limits, even occasionally. I'm thinking it would have to be the very few at the peak of the sport, with the other 99% working way within the limits of the engineering/performance capable in their board.

So if the vast majority of surfers are not really affected by things that add or subtract 3% or 5% in performance, is this debate the surfing community's equivalent to philosophising on how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?

Discuss!

[PeteW]

Oldman you are right….a man named Daniel Kahneman won a Noble Prize for telling us that we don’t think very much! I love that. Choice is a two edged sword because we don’t want to make choices, making a choice is work. So we develop habits to avoid considering the choice, in terms of surfboards the first habit is to go to the same shaper time and again. Even if you have to bring your own beer, that brand of beer is probably also bought habitually. Or we avoid choice by letting the salesperson talk us into buying something etc or we go for the brand we know and trust……which is why brands are so important. Rational economic man is now deceased, even many economists recognise that emotions always outweigh rationality in decision making.

A wiser man than me said The ultimate freedom is not having to choose…..the only requirement is that we trust them…..

Finally, as toothpaste is as important as surfboards Crest did an experiment in the US. They had over 30 varieties of Crest, that is flavours, dispensers, pack sizes etc. They took away more than a third of the varieties and shoppers thought they had more choice!! Choice is hard work, too much choice encourages repeat behaviour so we don’t think.

Are we debating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin? Yep…good fun isn’t it?

[Nick Carroll]

Exactly how many brands of custom made toothpaste do we really need in a supermarket? Are you and I sufficiently knowledgeable about toothpaste to work out which one is doing a better job, or is the almost infinite choice a bit of a con because they all work much the same?

There's a significant difference between surfboards and toothpaste oldbloke. The better ya get, the more you can pick the diffs. There's no "getting better" with the wielding of Colgate. You reach a peak fairly early in your career.

Ona different theme, how many of us 'push' our surfboards to their physical limits, even occasionally. I'm thinking it would have to be the very few at the peak of the sport, with the other 99% working way within the limits of the engineering/performance capable in their board.

So if the vast majority of surfers are not really affected by things that add or subtract 3% or 5% in performance, is this debate the surfing community's equivalent to philosophising on how many angels can fit on the head of a pin?

Discuss!

Anyone who's snapped or creased a board has pushed it beyond its limits. That's one way of looking at it.

The other way, well as ye point out, humans work by knitting logic to emotion. And the emotions of any surfer are triggered by witnessing a great surfer driving performance to new heights. If you've got any blood in you at all, it makes you want to surf better yourself. In this context, a 3-5% difference in a board's performance is a bigger difference than it first sounds.

[Nick Carroll]

Forget about Firewire for a moment what if some new technological breakthrough, because that is more what you were talking about, hits the water and it is not available in your preferred specs and just a range of models like snowboards, Surftech... do you give up everything you thought you new about what was right for you?

Well this isn't true of every area of me life, but in surfing, if that breakthrough was a serious advance on the current state of play, hell yes, I would be happy to give up said notions.

I've grown a lot more confident over the years in my ability to tune into new board ideas. I'll chuck the old, or part thereof, in several heartbeats if it means a step forward. The caveat being, I can tell much quicker nowadays if it's really a step forward or just sideways.

And after all it's just surfing, not looking after the Golden Child and her evil young sibling sidekick I'm indentured for life on that one

[Hawkeye]

well I was trying to resist writing more about the firewire thing but from what I've been told by those involved, it seems as if you'll be able to do either: buy from a store or custom order precisely to spec. In this way and in the performance feel of the materials they're planning to go a different road from SurfTech.

Hopefully this might be the competitive pressure the market needs to encourage Mr SurfTech to make his system available to custom shapers.

[ric_vidal]

Hopefully this might be the competitive pressure the market needs to encourage Mr SurfTech to make his system available to custom shapers.

I’ll start with you “compounding interest”.

There is nothing particularly special about the Surftech system. As you would be well aware if you have read their literature and seen the cutaway drawings and in-shop displays. Blown EPS foam covered in Divinicell or Klegecell and epoxy resin, spray painted and decorated so they don’t look as sh!thouse as they would if they weren’t! They are relatively cheap because they are made in Thailand, simple as that!