RealSurf Surfers' Forum

foamy wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:13 pm

As I heard Mark Richards say about board design on the WSL, what you are trying to achieve is a board that is fast and turns easily. Unfortunately, those two design wants don't necessarily work together.

Ah it’s pretty fcuken easy to get a really good board that goes fast and turns easily these days foamingham.

Riding it well, that’s a different matter.

godsavethequeen wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:22 pm

What elements of the dome make it rise out of the water Cranked?

Its more the properties of water. Planing is the mode of operation for a waterborne craft in which its weight is supported by hydrodynamic lift. In water hydrodynamic lift goes up approximately as the cube of speed (in air as the square).

From personal experience a good example of this is barefoot skiing. At approximately 33mph I can step off my ski onto my feet, although I am planing not on my feet but mainly just on the heels of my feet.

I don't think I have to say any more about the practicality of a McCoy planing mainly on the dome.

Very nicely put Cranked.

So by your ‘properties of water’ theory, a boat with a displacement hull (round, like a dome) can indeed plane?

Anything can plane if you apply enough force.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl3qWKLHaRk ... bvzhwjjz9z

The loaded dome will, once it reaches a certain speed, behave just like cranked explains.
It'll just suck donkey balls until it reaches that point, and be one of the last surfboard designs to reach the required speed.

Godsave, did they kill the Magic Seaweed forums?

godsavethequeen wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:28 pm

So by your ‘properties of water’ theory, a boat with a displacement hull (round, like a dome) can indeed plane?

G that McCoy dome isn’t like a displacement hull, it’s just like a fattened out rounded vee rising off the mid and tail section. At a certain speed, water colliding with its front bulge will cause the tail to lift. Not straight up though, more at an angle. (Lift occurs at 90 degrees to the angle of water striking the planing surface.)

No wonder cranked likes four fins.

Displacement hulls (k1s, surf skis, OCs etc) don’t use lift the way a planing hull does, they sorta gently nudge water out of the way. Make a displacement type hull go faster and it will actually be drawn down further into the water.

Well, speaking as someone who has ridden thousands of waves on a couple of different mccoys, I can assure you that there is no noticeable lift once a certain speed is reached. They are fast(ish) out of the blocks because they are buoyant, as mccoy himself notes

"Buoyancy is a key factor is surfboard design. I believe the surfer has to be supported by the surfboard, relevant to the wave size and speed to attain maximum performance in a range of conditions; that is what gives the board speed and manoeuvrability"

and the soft rails and big fins give a lot of hold. For the intermediate surfer this translates into greater control on cutbacks in steeper parts of the wave and decent speed maintenance through turns.

I'm pleased to have ridden them. Riding a neutral board for a while gave me quite a good insight into my surfing - a bit like taking all the furniture out of your house and painting every room white. After a while though, for me, they just became a bit too predictable

alakaboo wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:54 pm

Anything can plane if you apply enough force.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl3qWKLHaRk ... bvzhwjjz9z

The loaded dome will, once it reaches a certain speed, behave just like cranked explains.
It'll just suck donkey balls until it reaches that point, and be one of the last surfboard designs to reach the required speed.

I reckon the 17-18" tails mean they will give a lot of designs a run for their money in acceleration. And the dome is pretty shallow, the entire rounded V plus the dome is only 1/4" higher than the stringer rail to rail, and the entire tail lift from 2' back is only about 1/2". The actual dome is hard to see but if you rub your hand over it you can feel it. Zots are flatter than Nuggets.

Cranked wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:38 pm

alakaboo wrote: ↑

Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:54 pm

Anything can plane if you apply enough force.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl3qWKLHaRk ... bvzhwjjz9z

The loaded dome will, once it reaches a certain speed, behave just like cranked explains.
It'll just suck donkey balls until it reaches that point, and be one of the last surfboard designs to reach the required speed.

I reckon the 17-18" tails mean they will give a lot of designs a run for their money in acceleration. And the dome is pretty shallow, the entire rounded V plus the dome is only 1/4" higher than the stringer rail to rail, and the entire tail lift from 2' back is only about 1/2". The actual dome is hard to see but if you rub your hand over it you can feel it. Zots are flatter than Nuggets.

So Comrade Cranked, Astron Zot would be the board you'd recommend to someone who using rides HPSB?

The fcuking Astro Zot! This board should go down in surf history as the most frustrating board EVER designed.

It has moments of sheer brilliance where it acccelerates and flows and turns on a dime, next moment though you're just fallen off like a right gumbie at some critical, or even worse some completely non-critical, moment!

Just over four weeks of riding my three zots as 2+1s or singles (Gullwing/Winged Keel).

My first attempt was 18 months ago and it was a dismal failure. It was like learning to surf again, but in overhead to double. I was a danger to myself and everyone in the water and had to give it up. I had them converted to quads (McKee) and everything was sweet.

But I was still intrigued as to why Geoff thought his Zots were his best ever design and vowed that I'd keep trying.

The end of the season seemed a good time to take up the challenge again. Starting off as 2+1s worked well as I got used to not pumping turns for speed. Tried the singles and was not impressed. Thought I'd have to go with 2+1s. They were good, but not great. I think it was the wide tails that held them back. But I did get used to rail turns using the last 18" of tail. Great feeling!

Nearly gave up and put the quads back in, but decided I'd try again with the Gullwing/Winged Keel.

Set them at 8" from the tail It was that "greased pig" feeling; linked, fast flowing turns with a feel and movement across the face quite unlike a thruster or quad. I had tried more toward the middle of the box 18 months ago, but my complete lack of familiarity with the fins was probably the reason for failure.

The boards were really loose, lovely arcing turns, responding instantly to foot pressure (at times), I was excited. But the huge fails at unpredictable times also kept coming.

Only a few days left of this trip and I've spent it all fcuking around with the zots when I could have brought my super reliable Nuggets with me and just caught lots of waves and ridden them well.

The Zot fcuking enigma!

After a full year you can get them nailed I've heard, I'll keep trying from time to time.

I have read the fin position is oh so critical with the Zot

True. I've got it in a narrow range now, and the Winged Keel is a bit less critical and easier to ride.

Just for the record. Found this on some obscure forum:

Displacement Hulls

They're one of a variety of convex bottom designs, effective when used in combination with other elements of design. Here's a portion of something I wrote a few years ago that talks about the rounded convex bottoms you find on displacement hulls:

Bellied, or rolled, bottoms are generally rounded convex features. They can be subtly rolled, or highly domed. What sets bellied bottoms apart from other convex bottom shapes are their ability, under certain conditions, to generate a combination of lift and reduced wetted surface, and as a result, higher speeds. Due to the fact that a small region of the dome – it’s peak along the stringer – is nearly flat and parallel to the deck, the lifting force it creates is straight upward, in direct opposition to the force of the rider’s feet pushing down. As the entry rocker of the bottom lifts the board up onto plane, it begins to plane higher and higher, on a narrower and narrower planing surface, eventually planing only on an elongated, narrow portion of the bottom of the board when compared to flat or concave bottom designs… but only if the board is able to reach a high enough speed to do so. This is because a significant amount of lifting force, generated only by entry rocker, is required to hoist the board and rider up and out of the water to plane on the peak of the dome, and this degree of force can only be reached at high speeds. However, once up and planing on the peak of the dome, the reduced wetted surface allows the board to reach even higher speeds, and is the trademark design element of the “hull” shapes perfected by Greg Liddle. His boards are said by devotees to have a “fifth gear” that is only reached in long, fast point surf, where these designs excel and can be exploited.

This type of bellied dome should not be confused with another specialty design, invented and perfected by Geoff McCoy, called a “loaded dome.” McCoy’s loaded dome design is a softly rounded, pyramid shaped dome, with flattened panels on the sides, front and back. Although it is technically a displacement feature, the front panel actually creates a considerable amount of lift, and a high pressure “pivot point” at the top of the dome for turning. How this loaded dome is blended with rocker, rail, tail width, and other design elements is highly detailed, and a quite sophisticated feature of design.

McCoys don't work

McCoys don't work

Stu Nettle:

I had ten surfs on a Lazor Zap. The dimensions were 6'0" x 20'3/4" x 3'. It had a touch too much foam for my 75kg frame and a 5'10" would've been better suited.

The waves I rode it in were between two and four feet. In surf this size the first turn on a regular shortboard is nearly always off the front foot – a quick pump to get the board planing and the rhythm established. The first thing I discovered on a Lazor Zap is that such a turn isn't possible. Every turn, even small speed pumps, must come from the back foot.

To do this required a rewiring of my surfing instincts which I can best describe as learning to switchfoot. If you've ever attempted to switchfoot you'll know that you must override your instincts and make a concious effort to weight your opposite leg. Riding the Zap I had the same experience; I got to my feet and had to resist weighting my front foot for speed, instead concentrating on my back foot, the one I didn't usually use.

It was hard work yet when it clicked the feeling was unique. The sensation not unlike an Alaia (or any finless board) at just the moment it spins out. Except the Zap doesn't spin out, it holds. It feels like the fins only begin to bite once the turn is initiated and it takes a bit of time to understand the feeling and build the confidence to lay it over.

Those guys in the photos look like they were having trouble getting around the corners