john howard is a bare faced liar

[Yuke Hunt]

Interesting topic.......
In topic.....I mean the persona of the politician…not John Howard.
Although the JH persona is hard to swallow...he was the quintessential politician.
It isn’t hard to follow and bisect his career...in the negative...
.
On the same note…Hawke, Keating, Whitlam, Fraser, McMahon and Holt.....to name just some of the prominent figures in Australian politics...
have all been extremely flawed...especially in retrospect.
You could write a f**king thesis on the subject...undoubtedly thousands have done so.
I have no doubt what so ever that Kevin 07 will join this not so exclusive club.....in the not to distant future.

Q: How can you tell when a politician is lying..?
A: Their mouth is moving.
All politicians are liars.....Liars and sycophants.....it’s their career.

Voting is like making a choice between hospital and airline food….both are totally unpalatable.

Agree to disagree.

Lying and misrepresentation is not the exclusive domain of politicians..... Its rife in the private sector.....and sometimes just as damaging.

[Dingus]

It seems that in the post-Howard era so far that the Liberals have fallen apart and have no substance or real direction.

To be fair I'm playing catch-up with this political game and have almost zero depth to my knowledge, but listening to them day after day in both Question Times I cringe at the way they attack at the same few areas constantly, despite and regardless of the answers they receive. Is this normal for the Opposition to simply parrot the same 2 or three questions, following a party line that has nothing better to offer. I'm hoping that a few of these guys breakout soon. Laurie Oaks mentions in his intro to Power Plays that there is no original polititians these days, all being groomed by media teams and geared for the sound grabs that don't actually say anything.

The ALP isn't much better that I can see, but they can back their responses with substance and most of the dancing seems to be a cause of the repeated questioning from the d*ckhead opposition that is striving for a decent quote they can run a campaign on.

Is this what politics is about in Australia?

[Surfin Turf]

and another nugget from OMP. Brown as usual

but at least OMP's telling the truth ...

Are we allowed to talk about Obama yet or should I start a new thread?

M

yes, please use this thead ... please talk about obama ... please start talking about anything else ...

[PB]

The "all politicians lie" defence isn't a satisfactory one

Howard & his cabinet took lying to a level none of his predecessors had ever stooped, by...

*the sheer magnitude (lies about Iraq, the AWB, Children Overboard, Patrick Stevedoring/MUA)

*the blatancy (his 'core & non-core promises' comment showed a deep contempt for the Australian public from the very beginning of his term in office)

[oldman]

and another nugget from OMP. Brown as usual

[monkey]

Who was it who said "We get the leaders we deserve" ?

The majority kept voting Howard back in because "they" were doing ok.
Hence the problem, that most people are unwilling to sacrifice even a skeric of their wealth, prosperity or stability for the sake of making someone else's life a bit easier.

Bloody hell, I can feel a rant coming on...fkn Geoff Dixon, put the gloves on now ya tool!

[scroopulis]

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=X4wn70xPxzc

Koreans seem to have the right idea Ron.

[oldman]

Have to say I admire you lot for being interested. And if anyone can identify any ideological difference in the two major parties can you please let me know? Furthermore, that politicians anywhere are any different?

Ideology died some time ago Ron. Hard to say exactly when but if any of it existed when Howard started it certainly died during his term.

So it's not about ideology any more, your vote should be determined by the least hate method.

The political class is looking very homogenous these days. Hopefully soon they will all disappear up their own fundaments,

vive la revolution!

[Damage]

Their economic ideology is the same (because it has to be) but there are small enough differences in education, the environment, foreign affairs, health, industrial relations and a couple of other things to give those more discerning viewers something to ruminate over.

But yeah, i agree, the cold war is over.

[daisy]

...To be fair I'm playing catch-up with this political game and have almost zero depth to my knowledge, but listening to them day after day in both Question Times I cringe at the way they attack at the same few areas constantly, despite and regardless of the answers they receive. Is this normal for the Opposition to simply parrot the same 2 or three questions, following a party line that has nothing better to offer. I'm hoping that a few of these guys breakout soon. Laurie Oaks mentions in his intro to Power Plays that there is no original polititians these days, all being groomed by media teams and geared for the sound grabs that don't actually say anything.

The ALP isn't much better that I can see, but they can back their responses with substance and most of the dancing seems to be a cause of the repeated questioning from the d*ckhead opposition that is striving for a decent quote they can run a campaign on.

Is this what politics is about in Australia?

yeah pretty much i think.

i'm a bit remote from it all here in vietnam, but am interested to see whether any australian politician tries to ride Obama's wake by positioning themselves as the principled bipartisan reaching across the party divide. unfortunately it seems unlikely - looking at state labor and federal libs, seems like even reaching across the factional divides within either of the major parties is beyond our lot.

[LONGINUS]

The cold war effectively ended a long time ago, well before the fall of the Soviet Union I remember going over the Russian foxtrot submarine that some business man bought before he took custody of it in the 90's. This thing had been fully operational on patrol only a few months before. The Russians hadnt even had time to de-sensitise it properly they were so desperate to sell what they could to feed their military. The sailors lockers were complete with mid 80's porno calendars and weird calendars of barbie dolls dressed up, actually I think it was Skipper, or whoever Barbies little neice was.

The galley was still stocked with tins of Borsch (soup) and there was undeveloped film in the cameras on the periscopes. That thing had not seen a spot of maintenance for years and the compiler running the combat system had the computer power of your average dishwasher; and I remember thinking

what were we worried about?

We had basically been convinced by Reganomics that the cold war was still going on - nothing helps an economy like a war, especially an American economy geared for war. The US was itching for one right through the eighties but it never came. Engagements like Libya and Grenada kept the tempo alive though.

Reality was that after Afghanistan, the Russians were a spent force, when the wall eventually crumbled there was no military might behind it, just a lot of 1950's factories, obsolete T-72 tanks and broken people.

Anyway, I voted for John Howard, I always vote for the leaders of the parties. I thought he was a more experienced candidate than K.Rudd, having said that, K.Rudd seems to be doing a good job at present.

I dont see what many of our politicians do as actually lieing, complex issues that involve multiple stakeholders sometimes require you to appease one group to gain their support to then enact a solution that pleases the most people that are likely to vote for you next election - its the critical flaw of democracy. One year after you take power you have to spend all of the countries money to enact the ridiculous promises you made in the last election and a year before your terms ends you have to appease as many voters as possible to gain re-election. This only give a government 18 months to make hard decisons every four years.

Making documentaries is a wonderful thing, it's very easy to prove your own point or agenda by showing the footage you choose to display. Look at Michael Moore's films for example. Good movies but memorable only by their self opiniation. Then again, showing a balanced view of the Bush Administration would have been boring, doubt it ever would have gotten made, I certainly wouldnt have bothered watching it. Looking forward to Oliver Stones film on Bush, interested to see what side he takes.


I see value in the American system of voting for the party leader I must say - would prevent a lot of the "they are both liars anyway, doesnt matter who I pick".

Our election system is based upon the British system which in itself was designed to permit manipulation by the monarch if required. The American system came about after decades of abuse of the people by an occupying force, hence its designed to reward and involve citizens within the election process that they had just fought for the right to put in place.

Would this not give more ownership of the final decision to voters of who is going to run the country instead of just voting labour or liberal?

[Damage]

This only give a government 18 months to make hard decisons every four years.

3 year Federal terms are a ridiculous joke.

[Trev]

[quote="LONGINUS"]
I dont see what many of our politicians do as actually lieing, complex issues that involve multiple stakeholders sometimes require you to appease one group to gain their support to then enact a solution that pleases the most people that are likely to vote for you next election - its the critical flaw of democracy. One year after you take power you have to spend all of the countries money to enact the ridiculous promises you made in the last election and a year before your terms ends you have to appease as many voters as possible to gain re-election. This only give a government 18 months to make hard decisons every four years.[/quote

Exactly. This highlights a basic flaw in our system, however, I haven't seen a better one to replace it. It's still the floating voters who determine our government. More than 80% of Australians don't change their political persuasion during their lifetimes.
The rest, who can't make up their minds from one election to the next are swayed by populist statements and promises, along with a certain amount of rub-off from the press, workmates and family. And pick our new government.
I agree Crudd is doing pretty well at present but as I said after the election, wait a couple of years and see how we all feel then.

[Damage]

Yes I have said before that it is about 2 years too early to tell whether krudd is actually any good.

And what about making voting non-compulsory?

At least then then pollies don't have to be so populist.

[LONGINUS]

Anyway, I voted for John Howard,

OK gentlemen - you can stop looking now, we've found him.

He was hiding behind the couch the whole time...

Hey, I came clean straight away with the ponies were first hitched to the John Howard hate wagon about a year ago from memory.

Did you actually vote for Latham though when he ran against Howard? Scares me to think our legal / political system could allow someone get that close to Prime Minister, well actually he never had a hope really against the might of the coalition.

Only begun this clone war has

[Trev]

Non complsory voting? I've always been against it. Reckoned everyone should have their say.
However, in the context of this discussion, I'm having a re-think.
Just might help weed out the donkeys.

[monkey]

Worth reading Thomas More's "Utopia" again for hints on how to run a country. I loved the bits on leadership where expressing any apsiration to lead meant you were disqualified from such roles. Also, if your personal fortune increased because of your time being a leader, you would be executed.
You'd Think twice about your share portfolio wouldnt you?