Pintails

[oldman]

.......I bet waves have a discrete range of mathematical expressions tied to their physics - water, gravity, motion etc - and therefore surfcraft and human bodies atop are also a discrete range of physical possibilities (even if pretty wide). Therefore - and this is a nice thought - both mathematical, and yet, if you like, also spiritual - the deeper logic of surfcraft must integrate with the logic of waves - and in so doing we recapitulate something of the physical order of the universe, its underlying ratios and relations, which we, as creatures of the cosmos intuite through the very arcs we travel.

AlbyAl, even if you are taking the piss, that was really nice. Sort of resonates with Jung's 'fundamental interconnectedness of all things'.

Regarding waves having mathematical expressions, of that there is no doubt. Surfing is about riding an energy field expressed through the medium of water. All energy has a mathematical form. "Chaos" probably means it will always be beyond expression or rational comprehension though, and therefore the need to 'intuite'.

On the issue of assymetry, there is a great deal of logic to the idea, but it then adds another layer of design complexity to something that is already infinitely complex.

The other option would be to learn to ride goofy and natural, so you could keep your symmetry but have a board for backhand riding and a board for forehand riding. Are we getting complicated yet?

Appreciate the musings of all on this subject. While adding nothing at all I'm taking plenty away.

[Nick Carroll]

wanto wins. Straight lines handle speed ... curves drag.

fongy, I went through a long period working on asymmetrical boards with AB in the late 1980s...came to the conclusion that while the theory sounds good, what asymmetry really does is throw another bit of confusion into the whole mix. It's one thing for you to be asymmetrical while standing on a board, it's another for the board to actually feel different on either side too. It cramps your style development and constrains your freedom of thought about turns and angles etc.

Guess what I'm saying is there's enough asymmetry going on as it is.

[ric_vidal]

wanto wins. Straight lines handle speed ... curves drag.

Yeah, but they don’t want to be too long, or the ‘drag’ will be in the turning and that is all well and good for our to’d brethren, but somehow I can’t see a new flotilla of straight railed alaias being launched.

[tiger]

wanto wins. Straight lines handle speed ... curves drag.

fongy, I went through a long period working on asymmetrical boards with AB in the late 1980s...came to the conclusion that while the theory sounds good, what asymmetry really does is throw another bit of confusion into the whole mix. It's one thing for you to be asymmetrical while standing on a board, it's another for the board to actually feel different on either side too. It cramps your style development and constrains your freedom of thought about turns and angles etc.

Guess what I'm saying is there's enough asymmetry going on as it is.

Just a quick question Nick, were those particular boards designed for going only one way e.g. point break ala Burleigh?

NB. In most cases the assymetry would be mild, and not neccessarily obvious to the naked eye. Just a 1/4" here and there in widths, and even less in thickness and foils.

[pridmore]

My 2nd fibreglass board was one of Kong's old AB assymetrical tails, 6 channells, it was 6'0 on my backhand and 6'4 on my forehand, like a half square tail on the short side and a pin on the 6'4 side. It seemed to go well for me but not good enough to really know at that stage, just stoked to have an AB and one of Kongs as well. I also did several versions myself a few years later, i did one in particular that went amazing, it was a 6'2 x 18 x 2 1/4" deep single concave and it was a rounded pin on my forehand and a rounded square on my backhand...I always like squares backside and rounded pins on my frontside, so I just tried it and it went great, tried to do a couple more after that but never went quite as good....

[Beanpole]

Just as an exercise for all your brains:

If pintails are "faster", why are most modern towboards cut-off flat swallows, squares or semi bat-tails?

You have 60 seconds.

Um, because tow in boards are all about early entry and big turns to position for the heartattack inducing pitching lip. I guess its like having an outboard motor on your board.

[AlbyAl]

.......Therefore - and this is a nice thought - both mathematical, and yet, if you like, also spiritual - the deeper logic of surfcraft must integrate with the logic of waves - and in so doing we recapitulate something of the physical order of the universe, its underlying ratios and relations, which we, as creatures of the cosmos intuite through the very arcs we travel.

AlbyAl, even if you are taking the piss, that was really nice. Sort of resonates with Jung's 'fundamental interconnectedness of all things'.

Regarding waves having mathematical expressions, of that there is no doubt. Surfing is about riding an energy field expressed through the medium of water. All energy has a mathematical form. "Chaos" probably means it will always be beyond expression or rational comprehension though, and therefore the need to 'intuite'.

Taking the piss only a bit - because for sure the whole universe has been interconnected across 13 billion years back to the Big Bang, and we know that the known universe shares fundamental physical properties and laws with we piddly humans and all our carbon-based activities. Mathematics is the music of it all. BUT - it's a mistake to then think that human consciousness, even if one product of these vast interconnections can properly know or even 'intuite' these relations. We can hypothetically say "there are deep interconections", but so far no one has really shown how they are manifested beyond the physical laws we know about. I can go with the drift of Jung, but I never thought he had a new handle on how to good therapy etc. Relies too much on unsupported belief.

Knew this bloke who really went the 'interconnectedness' angle and has dropped out to a sort of therapy commune up in Qld: thought he could 'know' where others were coming from because of the interconnectedness. But that's a confusion of levels; the physical similarity and interconnectedness is way in the background compared with sharing social/cultural things - language, values, shared experience. Mundane, but way more relevant than the fact that we can say we are carbon-based life-forms subsisting on a thermodynamic gradient between a hot star and a cold planet.

[RichQ]

What he said.......& another thing...never mind.

[AlbyAl]

Asymmetrical?

Tried those as well. The best one I ever had came about like this: waited for 6 fricken months for a board from a very prominent shaper (er, might have been mentioned earlier in this thread, maybe not) Roundtail. Took it for a surf; noticed it seemed to arc more tightly on the backhand rail than the forehand; looked closely at the tail ... subtle different curves in last 12" of board.

Went to talk to shaper: "mate - interesting asymmetrical". Blank looks. "er, what?" The penny drops. It's an unintentional asymmetrical. Somewhere in the production process someone had to smooth out some ding or banged it into something, and the result was ... pretty funny when you looked at it closely and got the ruler out. Rad design - futuristic thinking - also known as 'human error'.

[Nick Carroll]

Just a quick question Nick, were those particular boards designed for going only one way e.g. point break ala Burleigh?

NB. In most cases the assymetry would be mild, and not neccessarily obvious to the naked eye. Just a 1/4" here and there in widths, and even less in thickness and foils.

No they weren't. Originally that's what turned AB on to it -- 'cause he was mostly just surfing one way down the line -- but I was surfing in variable beachbreaks and reefs and thus we changed a bunch of stuff about 'em.

Feel free to work on it ... my thoughts are that it's a bit of a design sidetrack. They can be fun but they don't take you into actual new territory.

[dunnc]

I remember seeing an article in ASL I think where they got Hayden to produce a board using I think 6 different design theories. It was assymetrical, had the golf ball dimples on one side and probably channels on the other - all in all a pretty radical board but too much so. Looked pretty cool but it'd surf pretty crap (with me on it..)

[pridmore]

I remember seeing an article in ASL I think where they got Hayden to produce a board using I think 6 different design theories. It was assymetrical, had the golf ball dimples on one side and probably channels on the other - all in all a pretty radical board but too much so. Looked pretty cool but it'd surf pretty crap (with me on it..)

sounds like fun, maybe I could do one with diff guys from RealSurf each choosing one element of the design ????make it functonal as always but combine different designs for some fun and interest ???

[dunnc]

I remember seeing an article in ASL I think where they got Hayden to produce a board using I think 6 different design theories. It was assymetrical, had the golf ball dimples on one side and probably channels on the other - all in all a pretty radical board but too much so. Looked pretty cool but it'd surf pretty crap (with me on it..)

sounds like fun, maybe I could do one with diff guys from RealSurf each choosing one element of the design ????make it functonal as always but combine different designs for some fun and interest ???

I was trying to dig around last night for the copy of the mag (I think it was the 200th issue of ASL) but it appears it fell victim to a cleanup a while back.

[pridmore]

I am sure Nick has a copy ...

[RichQ]

Nick commisioned the board & wrote the article. So, yes, he may have a copy.

[Ned Flanders]

Off the topic of pintails for the moment. One design feature in the sailboard/waveboard arena making a comeback is the 'twinzer' or twin fin design. It was a concept around about 10 - 15 years ago and didn't really catch on. But it is back in a big way at the moment. The key change in the design is making the board a little shorter and wider and the two fins are placed quite close together at the back of the board.

The link below provides some pictures of these types of boards:

http://www.quatroboards.co.uk/production/twinfin.html

Is this type of design something that would work on a surfboard ?

[ric_vidal]

Time to resurrect this... (you’d think a search would find a simple topic )

The result of too much time spent with Mr RichQ me thinks. Got to put his theory to the test, his tail planshape, was his front half but I changed it a fraction as it married up better with one of mine, his fin formula and tuition as to put what where, whether I did that successfully time will tell.

6'10" x 19 3/4" x 2 5/8" - weighing in at about 3.5 kg, Surfblank’s green foam*, 6oz bottom, 2 x 4oz deck bias glassing on both (don’t think I’ll be doing that again thanks Huie ). Single concave fairly deep.

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*from Midget’s site: Green Foam 1990 (Hyperlight) - 2.14 lb cu ft (approx) - Widely used for team rider’s shortboards, Green will produce what might be considered the lightest urethane foam surfboard on the planet. The popularity of this foam continues to grow even though the life of the finished surfboard may be short. It is rarely used in longboards. Always glued with green glue for identification.

I have used green foam for other purposes than just being light... perhaps more on that another day.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I remember seeing that Webber has made a pin-tail twin-fin that he claims is good for powerful indo style waves, and even big waves.

I'm not all that familiar with pin-tails, but more rail to use means more hold right?