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Roy_Stewart
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Re: Get this!

Post by Roy_Stewart » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:37 am

huie wrote:
so now your saying he has a bahne box installed and they have sanded 5 mil of it
i find that hard to believe
Well that's what has happened. It's not uncommon a customer recently had a McCoy board with 3mm taken off the box.

Both Australian and USA made are technically Bahne boxes.


if you are confused with my detailed info then you are in denial
You are the one who is confused.

I can explain where you are mistaken again if you like.

Roy_Stewart
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Re: Get this!

Post by Roy_Stewart » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:57 am

3-) :B

Image

Image

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huie
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Re: Get this!

Post by huie » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:57 am

roy this is your thread'' so i will finish with this.
i know that i will have made you take a good look at this subject (and that's a good thing)

i as well'' i have bahne box's on the way for dissection

but this pic when blown up tells me the two bases are not the same
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JvYz8MElgXM/V ... 66%2Bs.jpg


have a nice day


cheers huie

Roy_Stewart
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Re: Get this!

Post by Roy_Stewart » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:16 am

Hi Huie,

Of course the two bases are not the same I already explained why in detail.

What I've been doing is explaining where you are mistaken, all the necessary research has been done prior to this thread.

You'll see the fins above fitting nice and snugly and flush with the box. That fact doesn't seem to fit your agenda, but there it is.

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huie
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Re: Get this!

Post by huie » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:13 pm

i am mising something eh''

it is good to kick this around it also made me get of my are and double check my usa fins
the way your fin sits in Steves box is no doubt right.

good chat i will come with some thoughts when i dissect the bahn box's



cheers huie

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MrMik
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Re: Get this!

Post by MrMik » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:20 pm

Roy - do you think that imperfect fit at the base (due to fin box having been ground off) would cause a hum?

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MrMik
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Re: Get this!

Post by MrMik » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:27 pm

I'm going to get the Gullwhale fin back from Steve in the next few days and I am going to find a way to fix the problem with that bit of a gap between box and fin.

What would you like me to try out first: Wax, hot-melt-glue or blue-tak?

Personally, I think that hot-melt-glue will be best, but you never know until you try something.

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Re: Get this!

Post by Roy_Stewart » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:02 am

The only two fin boxes we've come across which have been massacred by the installer are both on this thread... how convenient.

#*!

I don't see how bogging the fin will help much as presumably you have 5mm of tab sticking out of the box as well.
Last edited by Roy_Stewart on Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Roy_Stewart
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Re: Get this!

Post by Roy_Stewart » Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:05 am

The best thing to do is to take the board back to the maker and get him to replace the box since it's his f&ck up.

:B

This box installation problem hasn't happened with USA boxes so far probably because the USA boxes have sacrificial tabs which locate the box at the correct depth.

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otway1949
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Re: Get this!

Post by otway1949 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:08 am

The green Outer Island board board is one of mine, the fit of the BLEF was fine, the BLEF also fitted another Outer Island, the Futures Bonzer side bites fitted well in the Futures side boxes.
About the Outer Island boards, Mitchel Rae would not install Futures side bite boxes as he said they would have to be ground to fit the bottom contours of the channel and concaves for the board as maintaining straight doesn't fit a curved surface.
All my boards have thickness in the tail so there was no need to grind or reshape the centre fin box to fit bottom contour, Box Au naturale :lol:
Jaffa, I'm opinionated, and I'm sometimes right. So?

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Re: Get this!

Post by Roy_Stewart » Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:49 am

Hi Saltman,

Sorry about the late reply, have been awol.

Will PM address, will definitely make a new fin to fit your shallower box. If you have another board which you'd like to try the fin in, then hang on to it for now.

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Re: Get this!

Post by Drailed » Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:20 pm

Nice of you to take csre if him Roy. All the best
Trev wrote:I have always had a lot of time for Dick
smnmntll wrote:Got one in the mouth once, that was pretty memorable

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MrMik
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Re: Get this!

Post by MrMik » Fri Mar 27, 2015 2:19 am

Time for a summary report.

Before I get started: Why the heck do the attached photos from my previous posts not show up any more? Does anone else have that problem? They showed just fine initially, now they have been replaced by a link that does not work. :twisted:

In a nutshell:
A): What I think:
I think the polycarbonate fins made by Roy are in all likelyhood better than their fibreglass ancestors, but I cannot find a way to prove this, not even to myself.

I believe they are better because:
- the material is light and strong and has a decent amount of flex to it.
- I was able to fix a ding to the trailing edge (not sure how it happened) by dragging the fin along the edge of my car boot. On a fibreglass fin, the ding would have required sanding and would then have left a defect. On the polycarbonate fin, the trailing edge could be bent back into shape so perfectly that I cannot feel the damage any more with my fingers, although it is visible because some paint from the car appears to be permanently embedded... :D
Using more appropriate tools, the trailing edge of the fin could probably be repaired more easily than a fibreglass fin and it would leave next to no trace.
- The poly fins are buoyant, you can find them again if they ever come loose in the surf. I guess the reduced weight conveys a performance advantage, but that might be a wrong assumption, considering that most people seem to like the weight of polyester McCoy boards compared to the lighter Surftech's.
- The foil of the polycarbonate Gullwing and Gullwale fins is much thicker than the foil of the various fibreglass Gulwing fins I have. It is based on a particular foil (Eppler 168?). I assume this foil has some sort of evidence base regarding it's performance, but I have not researched this at all. Roy can probably explain why he thinks that the Eppler shape is better than the thinner original fin foil.
A disadvantage of Roy's fins could be that the fit is less than perfect if the fin box has been sanded off during installation. The original gullwing fins always have a rather abrupt (i.e. no) transition between box and fin, while the polycarbonate version is shaped much more like a glassed-on fin (but only fits snuggly if the fin box is unaltered).
- the shape of the printed polycarbonate fins is reproducible, and small changes could be made and then reproduced accurately every time, whereas the hand shaped original gullwing fins are a bit different every time. I don't know what degree of inconsistency can be accepted and how much (if at all) the small differences would impact on performance.

B: What I could find / feel / measure regarding performance differences so far:

I was unable to find a noticeable difference in performance between original fibreglass Gullwing fin and Roy's Gullwhale or Gullwing fins. (Gullwhale = Gullwing with BLEF)
- In my 8'0'' single fin Nugget, I did not feel a difference between original Gullwing fin and Gullwhale fin. This includes only one session when the fins were swapped while in the surf, but numerous sessions in various conditions over several months when I used either the original, or the Gullwhale fin during a session. The main limitation to this testing is that I rarely manage to pull off anything that tests the limits of the board or the fin. My surfing ability is the main limiting factor in it all. However, a 14-year old grom on a 5'8'' Franken-Zot did not feel any difference between the fins, either (The grom gave up using the Franken-plugs a long time ago and uses the Gullwing fin exclusively instead of any other combinations).

The other main limiting factor is that the crowd factor at my local breaks is bordering on ridiculous, so that whenever there is any quality to the waves, the surfer density is so high that I cannot turn where I want. Instead, I need to slalom through masses of surfers. That (in combination with my lack of skill) makes testing of the fins difficult.
If there is an advantage imparted by the Eppler foil and/or the BLEF, then I think it would most likely be felt during extreme situations, i.e. high angle of attack, high speed, critical barrels etc. Unfortunately, I'm not the one to test anything in these conditions! I can sometimes pull these maneuvers off if everything comes together just right and I'm lucky and have a good day, but I don't have the competence to do this consistently, at will, or in a crowd.

Steve Shearer had the Gullwhale fin in one of his boards for a couple of months and told me he never took it out because he liked it so much. I'm stll hoping for a report from him, he's got the skill to actually test equipment near it's limits.

Testing the Gullwing and Gullwhale fins in the pool by hand revealed no difference except what can be attributed to the weight difference.
Comparing original fibreglass Gullwing fin to floating polycarbonate fins is difficult due the difference in weight. They certainly feel different, but it feels to me like it's mainly (and maybe exclusively) due to weight difference.

Comparing a polycarbonate Gullwhale fin to a polycarbonate Gullwing fin in the pool:

There is in my experience no discernable difference. I am unable to tell if I am holding the BLEF version or the non-BLEF version in my hand, no matter how I move the fins through the water. I think I've tried to find a difference for over an hours without any success.

Moreover, the polycarbonate BLEF and Non-BLEF fins behave exactly the same when tested in the pool using their buoyancy as the driving force: When pushed flat against the pool bottom before letting go, they will follow the exact same spiral to the surface, and they take the same time to get there.
When held vertically at the bottom of the pool and then let go, they both shoot to the surface of the pool in a straight line and take the same time to get there.

Other fins tested by hand in the pool (Ben Lexcen Star fin, dolphin fins, and various others) all feel clearly different to each other. I have not actually done it, but am certain that I could learn to tell the fins apart in a blind test.
However, I have not found a way to differentiate between polycarbonate Gullwing and Gullwhale fins, not even when I know which fin I am using.

My conclusion is that the Gullwing and Gullwhale fins work very well, at least in McCoy boards, and that the difference between Roy's Gullwing and Gullwhale fins is probably insignificant for intermediate surfers. I cannot rule out that BLEF might make a difference for good surfers, or for average surfers when surfing in good, uncrowded conditions. More testing is required.....

If all my fins disappeared, and I could only buy one fin to replace them, then I would buy the polycarbonate Gullwing fin without BLEF - if I could afford it. It costs significantly more than an original McCoy Gullwing fin, but is lighter and would be just like the last one I bought.

Drailed
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Re: Get this!

Post by Drailed » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:24 am

MrMik wrote:Steve Shearer had the Gullwhale fin in one of his boards for a couple of months and told me he never took it out because he liked it so much. I'm stll hoping for a report from him, he's got the skill to actually test equipment near it's limits.
Hmmm true to a certain extent but you would probably be better off sending the fin over to the Telo's with Nick Carroll on his next board test review. The guy charges way harder.
Trev wrote:I have always had a lot of time for Dick
smnmntll wrote:Got one in the mouth once, that was pretty memorable

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steve shearer
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Re: Get this!

Post by steve shearer » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:50 pm

Nicks' in his fifties Loof. The poor guy can't walk down the street without a zimmer frame.
I want Nightclub Dwight dead in his grave I want the nice-nice up in blazes

Roy_Stewart
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Re: Get this!

Post by Roy_Stewart » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:41 am

Nick posted a review on the BLEF Spitfire, which he rode in a bonzer setup.

Steve if you'd like to share your experience with the GW I'm sure that we'd all like to read about it.

What most people probably don't know is that Geoff McCoy followed his ( from what I hear) usual habit of flipping his lid over what he perceives as his property... I wrote to him when Mr Mik asked me to make the fin, saying that I would always give him credit for the orginal GW planshape and offered him a fin to try. I got no reply from Geoff. Then I joined a Geoff McCoy riders group on Facebook and posted a picture of our Gull Wing. .... I was immediately abused and banned from the group. A few days later I got a garbled letter from Geoff's lawyer, which made a host of demands, basically that I stop making the fins and that Geoff thinks my fins and boards are bad etc. I replied ( Geoff had no legal leg to stand on as the design has been in the public domain for decades, plus I've changed it significantly) and the lawyer folded immediately. An insider told me that the man has in the past used fake lawyer's letters and this sounded like one but I checked, it is real.

I can post up the correspondence if anyone would like to see it, I didn't agree to keep it private so can post it wherever I like.

The politics involved with the GMcCoy bum boy club is stupendous, and is pretty tragic in my opinion.

Roy_Stewart
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Re: Get this!

Post by Roy_Stewart » Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:46 am

By the way steve i know that i promised you a fin, sorry that i haven't sent one yet i've been snowed under and was crook with a staph infection as well.

Saltman I hope that you are having a good time in Bali, I haven't had a chance to redsign the fin base for your box yet but I'll definitely sort you out something.

Here's a ride report on a BLEf Spitfire quad setup:

"Dear Roy,

It is with joy and gratitude that I write to tell you about how well the Warp Drive quad fin setup performed yesterday afternoon, riding 4-6 foot reef break walls. The board really flew; there was a complete absence of turbulence sensed beneath my feet; and yet the hold was perfect. Turning also occurred on a shorter radius. What remarkable fins!

Anyway thanks again, and please feel free to publish my first paragraph on your websites if you like.


Yours sincerely,
J LF
South Coast NSW

Drailed
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Re: Get this!

Post by Drailed » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:41 am

Yeah post up the correspondence Roy.
Trev wrote:I have always had a lot of time for Dick
smnmntll wrote:Got one in the mouth once, that was pretty memorable

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