A bit on the nose...

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WANDERER
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A bit on the nose...

Post by WANDERER » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:09 am

http://www.surfline.com/surf-news/right ... ant_28801/

My ever lasting love for Tudor and his longboard surfing is fairly common knowledge, kudos to him for sticking to his guns for all these years, my own perspective is this: I'd like to see the australian longboard scene revert to at least a 50/50 criteria, Noseriding and trim should play a bigger part, my view is not as polarised as Joels in that in Australia I think we do have some very stylish surfers that could be at risk of being pigeon-holed as "high-performance" when in reality they are exceptionally well rounded surfers who exude style in whatever they do on a longboard, but there are still too many longboarders IMO on the scene that all but ignore the front 3 feet of their longboard in a contest situation and yet they are still winning heats and contests. All I want to see is a more rounded view of criteria in longboarding contests, rather than the ever increasing slant towards high performance shortboard mimicry.
The highlights from last years world longboard title contest were quite embarasssing in the style of surfing that was on display, there was of course exceptions but on the whole it was fairly dire.

watching this video mostly makes me feel like poo-ing :? http://www.realsurf.com/2008/11/17/2008 ... fre-video/
Yeah sure, its good surfing, but IMO I don't know whether its 'good longboarding'...

I understand opinions may vary.

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ric_vidal
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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by ric_vidal » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:57 pm

WANDERER wrote:but there are still too many longboarders IMO on the scene that all but ignore the front 3 feet of their longboard in a contest situation and yet they are still winning heats and contests.
then how come you keep trying to shorten yours by 3 feet? :lol:

Waiting to make MKII heavier...

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WANDERER
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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by WANDERER » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:11 pm

ric_vidal wrote:
WANDERER wrote:but there are still too many longboarders IMO on the scene that all but ignore the front 3 feet of their longboard in a contest situation and yet they are still winning heats and contests.
then how come you keep trying to shorten yours by 3 feet? :lol:
Not my fault the guy who made it doesn't know what he's doing... :P :lol:

Can I drop it round some time tomorrow?? I'll give you a call this evening.

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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by SDA » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:34 pm

Good article.

I have never really understood high performance longboarding.. I have always thought, why not just ride a shorter board?
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RickyG
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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by RickyG » Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:05 pm

Some interesting points there, but JT's been pushing for that point for ages. There's a few other noseriders I could think of to add to that list but I guess he had to keep it pretty brief.

Re the criteria, the other week at a comp I was judging and gave probably the highest score to a wave where the rider picked up possibly the best wave of the day and ripped it up - all from the back of the board. The fact it really stood out as arguably the best wave of the day occurred to me later and made me think. We're riding longboards after all, so should I have scored another guy who had less to work with but managed a nice noseride the same or even higher? Hard to say, but if riding a wave well on a longboard means doing what could have been done better on a shorter board it's worth thinking about.
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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by WANDERER » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:03 pm

I never said it was an easy thing to do RG, but I feel that too many judges out there either don't understand how to value or recognise a good noseride or they outright blatantly undervalue them? for me, being able to noseride with confidence through critical sections and doing that as an integrated part of riding the wave is important, as is traversing the length of the board with fluidity and grace. The noseride needs to be attributed more value and that value needs to be graduated as well i.e. a full hang ten in a critical section of the wave has to attract a higher score than the obligatory 5 toes "near" the nose halfway out onto the shoulder.
I get that it's not an easy thing to get the right mix, but I think over the length of a heat, no matter what the surf conditions you can usually figure out whether a surfer actually has the skill and or intent to noseride, if the noseriding part of the criteria is completely ignored then it needs to be judged that the surfer is not attempting to display the fully required reportoire as outlined in the judging criteria, this doesn't mean that he should be scored lower than someone who did do a noseride, but if you had two seperate surfers take almost identical waves but only one completed a noseride where the other may have just pumped through the section or simply did nothing, then the noseriding surfer should always be scored higher as he demonstarted a better variety of skill and a more complete use of the wave etc. In the case of the guy you judged to have the best wave Rick, I would have most likely scored him the same, though I may have asked myself if there was a stage where a noseride could have been completed, and if there was, well this doesn't mean he doesn't have the highest scoring wave of the heat, but that the judges scores should reflect that no attempt was made to integrate a noseride into the ride so maybe at the most he would only score a 7 out of 10 where had he taken the chance to include a noseride where suited his score may well have been a 9 or 10 out of 10, his 7 would still be the highest score of the heat, but there should be space left to score him if on his next wave he does manage to repeat his feats this time including a noseride or two.

To be clear a 50/50 criteria shouldn't mean that the best wave surfed that doesn't include a noseride can only score a maximum of 5 out of 10, what it means is that noseriding should be as highly valued as every other manouvre, perhaps it should be the "100% criteria" instead of 50/50...

Like I said, it aint easy to get the balance right and that is part of the problem.

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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by Morgan The Moon » Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:23 pm

WANDERER wrote:To be clear a 50/50 criteria shouldn't mean that the best wave surfed that doesn't include a noseride can only score a maximum of 5 out of 10, what it means is that noseriding should be as highly valued as every other manouvre, perhaps it should be the "100% criteria" instead of 50/50...

Like I said, it aint easy to get the balance right and that is part of the problem.
The current split also sends a clear message to competitors - we don't value traditional longboarding as much as high performance.

So if you're after a place, and these are guys that choose to compete, then what do you do????

Maybe, if you're a traditional rider you stick to Old Mal comps, but I've seen some bizarre decisions on that stage too.

I clearly remember a head judge at one comp turning his back on a particular rider because he said, "I know what he'll do" - I know this young bloke had a whole heap of traditional manoevres at his disposal, rode fluidly and did mix it up, but the judge wanted something else.

It'd be pretty disheartening for a young kid to outsurf the majority of riders and bomb out early in a comp.

Who sets the split anyway?

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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by sean-- » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:08 pm

I used to surf in a mal club and do a few contests years back and it obviously still hasn't changed. Cant really see how it can when its up to what individual judges like to see. I guess if you can mix it up then you have a chance to do alright. Banning shuffling would be a good move.

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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by GregL » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:23 pm

mal riding should be judged on traditional moves i reckon. if you're going to use the same criteria as shortboard judging then just give everyone shortboards and be done with it. it's like comparing cross country skiing to alpine skiing.
i'm only fairly new to mal riding and i definitely now have an appreciation for how difficult some moves can be. nose riding done well is bloody hard!

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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by Chillin » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:56 pm

Trad mals for trad moves i rekon, the modern high performance mal needs a new criteria for judging. I don't compete, but i watch the local comps and iv see a few national and state titles at the local beach, and i'll be buggered if i can see the criteria for judging in the results. I watched some guy literaly rip the waves apart, only to fail to get through against a guy who basically nose rode everything in sight. I know at least two local contenders who have both types of board in their quiver to satiate the judges on the day.
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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by marcus_h » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:36 pm

Was going to write a long winded reply basically stating my hate for fellow longboarders who are scared/cant of riding the nose but I'll just quote this from the article
WHAT IS THE "COOL STUFF" IN LONGBOARDING?
It's what separates us from everyone else: the principle of riding the front half of the board. That's where the real level of difficulty comes in. It's everything.

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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by Trev » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:38 pm

Now, this is a pet hate of mine.
Gonna disagree with everyone here.
First off, when I last competed in mal comps with any regularity (late 80's, early 90's), people were complaining that nose riding was getting too high a percentage of the scoring.
I have never been a big lover of nose riding, prefering to get in the sweet spot of the wave and let that dictate what moves I do - ie don't do pre-planned moves. Go with the flow.
Now - nose riding. As someone said above, the modern mal is designed for modern surfing, not traditional moves, so if you ride a modern mal, get judged by that standard.
There were NO "noseriders" in 1960 -65. A malibu was a malibu and skill and a great sense of trim was required to get up the nose. So if you're going to judge people on nose riding based on the "old" standards, no concave noses allowed (and no Roy Stewart tunnel fins :wink: ).
In the early 60's walking the nose required just the right section of wave, a slight stall, cross steps to the nose and then control of the angle of the board to keep it hanging in the curl as long as possible, followed by a reverse (?) cross step back to your normal trim position. If you didn't make it back, it didn't count.
The modern longboard can incorporate all sorts of design tricks to facilitate nose riding. I watch guys catch a wave still so flat a shortboarder can't catch it and immediately walk up the nose and just hang there across the wall. Sure it looks good and I admire what the board makers have achieved in design. But if you're talking about staying traditional and giving nose riding more scoring cred, then lets make sure the boards boast no design aids.
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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by Beanpole » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:46 pm

I remember one of the rare contests I went in a few years ago. Dudded out as usual but one of the local shortboarders made the final on a borrowed McTavish. He had a nice smooth style but he basically just rode the board like his regular board only slower and without any exciting moves. Did not leave the tail at any point.I don't think I ever saw him ride it ever again. :roll:

I found it amazing he could get that far without showing any longboarding skills at all.
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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by ric_vidal » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:28 am

Beanpole wrote:I found it amazing he could get that far without showing any longboarding skills at all.
And there’s the problem.

Has the judging criteria gone to pot, or has it evolved? Not too many surfers can combine ‘modern’ with traditional from what I have seen.

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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by ric_vidal » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:33 am

TrevG wrote:The modern longboard can incorporate all sorts of design tricks to facilitate nose riding. I watch guys catch a wave still so flat a shortboarder can't catch it and immediately walk up the nose and just hang there across the wall. Sure it looks good and I admire what the board makers have achieved in design. But if you're talking about staying traditional and giving nose riding more scoring cred, then lets make sure the boards boast no design aids.
Trev, that’s just silly or I can’t ride :twisted: :D Progression in design is paramount, if you want traditional like that go and ride a stinkin’ old mal.

One thing is for sure, the cream always rises to the top, irrespective of the equipment.

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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by Trev » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:31 am

ric_vidal wrote:
TrevG" wrote:The modern longboard can incorporate all sorts of design tricks to facilitate nose riding. I watch guys catch a wave still so flat a shortboarder can't catch it and immediately walk up the nose and just hang there across the wall. Sure it looks good and I admire what the board makers have achieved in design. But if you're talking about staying traditional and giving nose riding more scoring cred, then lets make sure the boards boast no design aids.
Trev, that’s just silly or I can’t ride :twisted: :D Progression in design is paramount, if you want traditional like that go and ride a stinkin’ old mal.

One thing is for sure, the cream always rises to the top, irrespective of the equipment.
Ric, I wasn't criticising either the rider or the board.
Note, "Sure it looks good"
and , "I admire what the board makers have achieved in design".

I was using the observations to support the earlier opinion that there needs to be some separation between "traditional" and "modern". And to agree that, if noseriding has fallen by the wayside in the judging stakes, it should be re-instated but with attention paid to the type of board ridden.
I have two modern construction mals. One has some concave and one doesn't. Totally different approach needed to work the nose properly.


ps. I highlighted my bit because for some reason the quotes didn't work properly - must have hit a wrong button while typing.
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I still don't buy the "official" narrative about 9/11. Oh sure, it happened, fcuk yeah. But who and why and how I'm, not convinced it was what we've been told.

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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by WANDERER » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:13 pm

Don't forget that the evolution of the longboard didn't stop at the advent of the shortboard revolution, while bob and nat were sawing feet off the front of their boards, David Huuhiwa and others were involved in refining the longboard into a noseriding machine (arguably at the sacrifice of any high performance aspects - though I would argue that noseriding itself is a high performance aspect!).

The act of riding the front third of a 9 foot plus board is what seperates longboarding from shortboarding and hence IMO should be a rigid criteria for the judging of longboard competitions, as it as at the moment the general movement is towards almost a copying of shortboard criteria across to longboard contests. This is especially annoying in Australia as we already have the avenue to accomodate both, the 8 foot divisions should be (and is) the 'high performance' shortboard style event and this then should pave the way to preserve the noseriding aspects of the 9 foot plus divisions, this is how I approach it, my 8 footer is completely geared towards shralping from the back of the board, my 9'5" is for noserding and powerful carving pivot turns, its a flat board, single fin, soft railed, I would class both boards as "high performance" it's just that their purposes and approach are different. Having both allows me to keep my 9 foot longboard 'pure' for want of a better word but also allows me the freedom to cut loose on the 8 footer.

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Re: A bit on the nose...

Post by Freshie Boy » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:20 pm

its amazing at some of the NB mal clubs that I've competed in/watched, at how shafted some good surfers get because they have a traditional style and dont attempt big layback snap on some 2 ft mush.

There have been many heats where a bloke has taken off, bottom turned and stalled and gone to a reasonably lengthy noseride and proceeded to ride the rest of the wave all the way with a few cutbacks in for say a 15/20 score, whereas some surfers do one big turn off the shoulder, a big reo and essentially race (waste) most of the wave and get a 18?

in my opinion, getting a decent noseride on a good wave should automatically put you at about 12/20, with subsequent turns/more noserides pushing that score up even higher.

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