Volume

Tribal discussion for shortboarders

Moderators: Shari, collnarra, Butts, Forum Moderators

channels
Harry the Hat
Posts: 3157
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 4:36 pm
Location: Northen Beaches

Volume

Post by channels » Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:28 pm

I know this is one of Shearer's pet hates and will probably start an Iggy style love-in on measuring wave heights but I was playing around with the Firewire Optimum Volume calculator. http://www.firewiresurfboards.com/surfb ... e_calc.php

As a 40 year old, intermediate surfer with above average fitness and weighing 83kgs, optimum volume according to this was 43-50 litres in weak waves and 41-45 litres in good waves. A little surprising given most of my boards are always around the 35 Litre mark. Anyone else think this is over the top?

ctd
barnacle
Posts: 1460
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:49 pm

Re: Volume

Post by ctd » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:19 pm

If you are seriously using a calculator to figure out the volume you need (which I'm not suggesting you were), then probably you need more volume* than someone who wouldn't rely on a calculator in a blue fit (which is likely to be you).

Still, I've seen people plug the numbers in other calculators, at beginner level, and get results like 26L and even one lightweight friend (about 60kg) who was recommended a 23L board. So at least Firewire is more realistic.

*with all the limitations associated with using volume a single measurement

Natho
barnacle
Posts: 2347
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:21 am
Location: In the pit

Re: Volume

Post by Natho » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:19 pm

Like what the fcrk had your age got to do with board volume, esp if you are already giving your skill, fitness level and weight?.

User avatar
foamy
Harry the Hat
Posts: 3426
Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 6:46 pm

Re: Volume

Post by foamy » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:30 pm

What the firewire people do reckon is that you, at age 40, should accept that your high perf days are over and that you actually need a lot of help just to paddle into a wave, you poor old fellow.

I plugged in your data, only varying the age.
At 40, 43-50 litres in weak waves and 41-45 litres in good waves.
At 20, 36-42 litres in weak waves and 34-38 litres in good waves.
At 55, 54-62 litres in weak waves and 51-57 litres in good waves.

It's damnable cheek from whippersnappers, if you ask me.

Natho
barnacle
Posts: 2347
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:21 am
Location: In the pit

Re: Volume

Post by Natho » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:13 pm

Ok given the firewire target market is absolute kooks well its all starting to make sense now

User avatar
Davros
Snowy McAllister
Posts: 8582
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:46 pm

Re: Volume

Post by Davros » Thu Nov 13, 2014 8:47 pm

I also reckon they over rate ability and fitness, for example I reckon their scale for advanced surfer probably = intermediate and fitness above average equals average. Point is they know your average or below and by telling you your good but under gunned and that's why you get 2 waves a session, can't cut back, can't surf waves over 3 ft, it's all your current boards fault, I'm good enough to know I'm average I don't need someone to piss in my pocket and tell me that it's raining dollars. An advanced surfer who is fit at any age or weight rips pretty much on waves up to 6-8 ft. If you need a 55 litre shortboard at 45 years of age ya just ain't that good so save your 1000 bucks and by a nice cruisey board that gets you stacks of waves a session on waves your fitness and skill level your comfortable in (that is don't bob around getting in the way in pumping dawn patrol because Coastalwatch said it was on and your new FireWire is going to magically make you above average and fit .....it's not....sorry).

User avatar
Cpt.Caveman
barnacle
Posts: 1594
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:13 am
Location: Sydney - Everywhere and nowhere.

Re: Volume

Post by Cpt.Caveman » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:05 am

I think that volume calculator is rubbish. Leave it up to the shaper, because volume is only one part of the package. Rocker, planshape, volume distribution, etc. can all affect paddling too.

Volume affects two things as well, it affects paddling from A to B, and it also affects lift while surfing. The shape of the board also affects the same things.

Its useful, because given a particular shape that you like (e.g. HPS), if you don't deviate from that shape too much you can make more sense of volume. If you're talking Modern Planing Hull vs. HPS vs. Lis Fish vs. whatever, knowing volume doesn't help much.
Davros wrote:Ego saved - surfing experience rubbish.

User avatar
Hatchnam
Duke Status
Posts: 10604
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:44 pm

Re: Volume

Post by Hatchnam » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:31 am

The FW calc is silly, but I don't think the volume factor is to be ignored either.

Since the inception of volume as a metric, for mine, I've found that for a shortboard that anything less than 32 litres will bog too much unless it's barrelling. And anything greater than 38 litres will have too much lift and lack feedback/sensitivity.

a board is either gonna float you too much or too little. And a lot of that can be determined by just picking it up under your arm and feeling the board over, without having to rely too much on volume metrics
The Mighty Sunbird wrote:I think I had kebab and DOOGH every day. Fresh DOOGH is heavenly
steve shearer wrote:full dionysian hand jive body torque

User avatar
petulance
Duke Status
Posts: 17072
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:37 pm
Location: Sitting on the shoulder

Re: Volume

Post by petulance » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:42 am

I posted this before but here it is again, Grant Miller's article about Volume that appeared in Pacific Longboarder

http://www.grantmillersurfboards.com.au/shaper/Volume
Legion wrote: If you're that dumb that you can't figure out how to get it on, move to Lennox.

If you're that dumb that you can't figure out how a suit with a horizontal zip on the chest or no zip is an improvement on a back zip, move to Lennox.

User avatar
swvic
Snowy McAllister
Posts: 6032
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 12:10 pm

Re: Volume

Post by swvic » Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:00 am

Think I like Grant Miller

"To me, these developments are very regrettable. Certainly not nearly as regrettable as having Abbott as PM, but right up there nonetheless."

I got the first of I don't know how many boards 40 years ago. I've known the volume of one
marcus wrote:and that vicco dude, whatsisname?

User avatar
Davros
Snowy McAllister
Posts: 8582
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:46 pm

Re: Volume

Post by Davros » Fri Nov 14, 2014 12:56 pm

While I think he speaks the truth some what the custom shapers enemy would be a common denominator that determines what a punter surfs, it removes them even further from the shaper/client relationship and survival.

User avatar
saltyseadog
newbie
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:17 pm
Location: Victoria

Re: Volume

Post by saltyseadog » Fri Nov 14, 2014 1:50 pm

I don't believe that a volume calculator is ever going to be right unless it is aligned with the specific board, as I've ridden a 30ltr Fred Rubble that I felt that it paddled better than a 37ltr JS Revolution. Like Cpt Caveman says its all down to the shape of the board and the way the shaper wants the board to perform.

The closest calculator that I have found to making any sort of sense is this one:
http://www.lostsurfboards.net/whats-you ... explained/

Nick Carroll
Duke Status
Posts: 18132
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:29 am
Location: Newport Beach

Re: Volume

Post by Nick Carroll » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:34 pm

jesus christ

ok well here is my experience with the volume measurement. my general opinion is that the more you know about your equipment the better, but lets put that aside for the moment.

I've been a bit sceptical of the value of accurate volume measurement but a recent board test experience really turned me around on it.

I had 18 boards to ride, most of them featured a volume measurement courtesy of the machine cutter.

What I found was that it is a shockingly accurate predictor of a board's general feel in the water. Not of the sorts of turns it'll do best but of its feel - how it sits in the water underneath you, how it reacts when you move your weight on it (classically in a takeoff), how you feel in relation to it while moving around the lineup (not just paddling, but duckdiving, shifting the boar underneath you after being pushed around by side chop etc)

I found I could tell quite small differences in volume NO MATTER WHAT the board's design features - admittedly within a fairly small band. (The longest board we tested was 5'10", the shortest was 5'2"). To me the differences were palpable within 500mg and detectable to 200mg.

It came as a real surprise to me that such differences were so detectable, and while a lot of the volume effect was a bit diffuse and unrelated to any individual turns, it clearly could make a big difference to your sense of comfort with a board, and with a lot of basic stuff that frankly it seems to me most average surfers deal with way more than a board's ability to accelerate off the mark or recover quickly from a complex top turn slide combo.

I talked to a lot of the designers involved and most had gone through a similar evolution in their thinking on it, maybe not through a concentrated surf experience like the one I had but through a couple of years' experience with customers, trying to understand what the actual point of the measurement was.

I also remember Greg Loehr, the renowned US East Coast shaper, saying he thought volume was the key measurement and its day would come. That was 1996. I suspect Greg - as he did with eps/epoxy - was thinking ahead of his time.

Nick Carroll
Duke Status
Posts: 18132
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:29 am
Location: Newport Beach

Re: Volume

Post by Nick Carroll » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:39 pm

oh I should say the volume calculators on a lot of surfboard sites are pretty off, mainly because they rely too much on guesswork about skill and fitness on the part of the customers. They'll probably get a bit better over time.

bomboraa
regular
Posts: 218
Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:03 pm

Re: Volume

Post by bomboraa » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:51 pm

Nick where all the boards the same foam type and construction technique?

User avatar
spork
barnacle
Posts: 1277
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:01 pm

Re: Volume

Post by spork » Fri Nov 14, 2014 10:00 pm

At the end of the day volume effects buoyancy, where its distributed and how much there is. 40ltrs is a lot of buoyancy in a 5'10" but not much in a 9' mal.
When it gets to this level of self important stupidity I lose interest.
Roy Stewart

Nick Carroll
Duke Status
Posts: 18132
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:29 am
Location: Newport Beach

Re: Volume

Post by Nick Carroll » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:39 am

bomboraa wrote:Nick where all the boards the same foam type and construction technique?
not quite, most were PU but there was a Firewire and a couple of eps epoxy carbon things in the mix.

feels to me that those differences are felt more in the riding these days - the lightest board of the bunch was a PU

I should make it clear, while there were 8" length differences betwee the shortest and longest boards, the volumes varied between 22.5 litres and 26 litres. so not a vast range. that's one reason why I was a bit stunned by being able to tell such small differences and by where you actually feel volume while surfing.

User avatar
steve shearer
Huey's Right Hand
Posts: 20707
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:20 pm

Re: Volume

Post by steve shearer » Sat Nov 15, 2014 10:37 am

Nick Carroll wrote:jesus christ

ok well here is my experience with the volume measurement. my general opinion is that the more you know about your equipment the better, but lets put that aside for the moment.

I've been a bit sceptical of the value of accurate volume measurement but a recent board test experience really turned me around on it.

I had 18 boards to ride, most of them featured a volume measurement courtesy of the machine cutter.

What I found was that it is a shockingly accurate predictor of a board's general feel in the water. Not of the sorts of turns it'll do best but of its feel - how it sits in the water underneath you, how it reacts when you move your weight on it (classically in a takeoff), how you feel in relation to it while moving around the lineup (not just paddling, but duckdiving, shifting the boar underneath you after being pushed around by side chop etc)

I found I could tell quite small differences in volume NO MATTER WHAT the board's design features - admittedly within a fairly small band. (The longest board we tested was 5'10", the shortest was 5'2"). To me the differences were palpable within 500mg and detectable to 200mg.

It came as a real surprise to me that such differences were so detectable, and while a lot of the volume effect was a bit diffuse and unrelated to any individual turns, it clearly could make a big difference to your sense of comfort with a board, and with a lot of basic stuff that frankly it seems to me most average surfers deal with way more than a board's ability to accelerate off the mark or recover quickly from a complex top turn slide combo.

I talked to a lot of the designers involved and most had gone through a similar evolution in their thinking on it, maybe not through a concentrated surf experience like the one I had but through a couple of years' experience with customers, trying to understand what the actual point of the measurement was.

I also remember Greg Loehr, the renowned US East Coast shaper, saying he thought volume was the key measurement and its day would come. That was 1996. I suspect Greg - as he did with eps/epoxy - was thinking ahead of his time.

With respect, isn't that just stating the bleeding obvious.
If you take a boards planing characteristics at waveriding speed out of the equation then at low speed buoyancy is obviously the most important factor to how a board feels.
I want Nightclub Dwight dead in his grave I want the nice-nice up in blazes

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests