Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

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Cpt.Caveman
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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by Cpt.Caveman » Tue May 20, 2014 11:16 am

I read a long discussion on swaylocks about volume versus planing area/total surface area. There were quite a few shapers that were pretty confident that planing area/surface area was a lot more important than volume for both paddling and planing speed. They even shaped boards with identical surface area but went up or down in volume, and came to the conclusion that approriate surface area with a minimum volume is more important than a minmum volume at any surface area.
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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by steve shearer » Tue May 20, 2014 11:33 am

exactly.\

still the biggest problem I see in rec surfers is inadequate low speed planing/displacement area. Which is , as Geoff McCoy has been saying for years, fundamentally a problem of buoyancy.
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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by Natho » Tue May 20, 2014 11:46 am

There's also board weight. A lighter board will float better all other things being equal.

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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by ctd » Tue May 20, 2014 12:54 pm

Natho wrote:There's also board weight. A lighter board will float better all other things being equal.
Not by much though

5kg board minus 10% = 4.5kg. board
5kg lb. board plus 80kg rider = 85kg
4.5kg board plus 80kg rider = 84.5kg
10% less weight = less than 0.5% actual difference

Its a 10% better bouyancy for the board by itself floating alone in the blue yonder; but put us lumps on top of it and it makes little difference.

Although 'bouyancy' while moving is different to bouyancy while stationary so the above may not actually be true. Just to contradict myself

Also weight is different to density. Just to confuse myself.

I failed yr 10 science.

Whatever feels right, I guess.

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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by Beerfan » Tue May 20, 2014 1:13 pm

Trying to scientifically quantify or explain surfing is sheer madness. So many variables and even then, everyone not only surfs differently, but everyone enjoys different things in surfing. No formula for the feel.
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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by tootr » Tue May 20, 2014 1:16 pm

Just go and buy a Hypto and be done with it.
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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by Natho » Tue May 20, 2014 1:19 pm

IN a HPS 10% is a fair difference ctd.

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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by philw » Tue May 20, 2014 1:28 pm

Beerfan wrote:Trying to scientifically quantify or explain surfing is sheer madness.
so is trying to find theoretical particles, string theory etc etc

but we try. surfing needs a large hadron collider

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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by Beerfan » Tue May 20, 2014 1:36 pm

philw wrote:
Beerfan wrote:Trying to scientifically quantify or explain surfing is sheer madness.
so is trying to find theoretical particles, string theory etc etc

but we try. surfing needs a large hadron collider
Oh no, here we go
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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by Nick Carroll » Tue May 20, 2014 1:43 pm

well ctd that's not quite right, you're thinking about it the wrong way around.

let me Demonstrate.

my lil MC weighs a bit less than 3kg. With my 77kg on top of it, that's 80kg.

my 10'6" Kracka ultra super clubby racing board weighs 7.65 kg. With my 77kg that's 84.65kg.

So I am lighter on the MC than on the Kracka, but I tell ya what, there's no comparison re buoyancy. On the Kracka I am literally out of the water.

There are actually equations that relate to this mass/displacement gizmo but I don't know 'em. The result however is if you put a neutrally buoyant thing like a live human body in with a positively buoyant thing like a surfboard into the water, the overall buoyancy of the combined objects improves.

Ie you float better on a board despite your combined weight being greater.

This is where that volume thing mentioned by capt caveman and shearer above comes into its very own. My Kracka is a little over twice as heavy as my MC. But its volume is much greater. just at a guess the Kracka is maybe eight times the volume of the MC; its planing surface area is about twice the MC's. And at a guess, I reckon its paddling speed is close to three times faster. I can paddle that board at a continuous rate of six and 3/4 minutes per km in flat water. On the MC, jeez I would say it'd be more like swimming pace, around 15 minutes maybe? Maybe even a bit slower, because you can draw a cleaner line through the water as a swimmer than you can on a short surfboard. And the Kracka's wave catching ability is magnitudes greater, it can pick up swells long before they approach breaking, and paddling downwind you can cut that 63/4 minutes down to five and a half, whereas on the MC it wouldn't make a difference.

To me, taking the Kracka out of the picture, the big diff in board speed both paddling and surfing is lift, what's available and at what pace. And lift at the low speeds characterised by paddling is aided by volume. I have several MCs actually, two of 'em are more or less identical in planing area and rocker, but the thicker one definitely paddles quicker. That's always been my experience of surfboards. At wave speed it's a different story of course.

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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by Nick Carroll » Tue May 20, 2014 1:45 pm

Beerfan wrote:Trying to scientifically quantify or explain surfing is sheer madness. So many variables and even then, everyone not only surfs differently, but everyone enjoys different things in surfing. No formula for the feel.
well you can explain it. Just not all at once. Unified Field Theories in surfboard design are pretty bullshit really.

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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by tootr » Tue May 20, 2014 2:02 pm

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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by steve shearer » Tue May 20, 2014 2:20 pm

Nick Carroll wrote:
To me, taking the Kracka out of the picture, the big diff in board speed both paddling and surfing is lift, what's available and at what pace. And lift at the low speeds characterised by paddling is aided by volume. I have several MCs actually, two of 'em are more or less identical in planing area and rocker, but the thicker one definitely paddles quicker. That's always been my experience of surfboards. At wave speed it's a different story of course.
Bingo. And there are equations for that as well.

And also ideas for lay people to get their heads around : lift at low speed/paddling and lift at planing/wave-riding speed.


That simple twinned concept, drummed into me by Owl Chapman in Hawaii and Geoff McCoy here in Oz, despite their fundamentally different design outcomes has probably done more to improve my surfing experience than any other.
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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by ctd » Tue May 20, 2014 2:41 pm

[quote="Nick Carroll"]well ctd that's not quite right, you're thinking about it the wrong way around.quote]

Nick, arent you just proving my point, which is that weight is not a particularly relevant factor (which should be density anyway, making weight even less relevant). Maybe you arent, but I'm at sea with all this stuff. (pun intended if you think it was amusing).

And then, as your example shows, volume is relevant only when comparing otherwise identically shaped boards (by shape I mean rocker/planing area). Then the higher volume will certainly be relevant. But starting off comparing differing board choices by looking at volume is pointless, because boards can have the same volume and be totally different. The closer the boards you are comparing to each other, the more useful volume becomes - but you have already made decisions on length, rocker, planing area etc etc before you get to that stage. I guess at this stage weight also becomes a small issue

Anyway, I have read swaylocks threads on this by people much smarter than me and I dont understand them, so I will refrain from further comment. Interesting though.

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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by Donweather » Tue May 20, 2014 3:20 pm

Nick Carroll wrote:And lift at the low speeds characterised by paddling is aided by volume. I have several MCs actually, two of 'em are more or less identical in planing area and rocker, but the thicker one definitely paddles quicker. That's always been my experience of surfboards. At wave speed it's a different story of course.
Hit the nail on the head big time here!!!! Particularly your first and last sentences!!! The key to a sic surfboard is finding that balance between lift at low speed (to catch the wave) and manourevability at wave speed!!!!

Edit: Apologies Steve as I only read your post above after posting my post. Seems we agree, hence why we probably love Mark's QF's so much!!!

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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by Hatchnam » Tue May 20, 2014 4:18 pm

Whatever happened to "if it feels right under your arm, it'll feel right under your feet" ? Pick it up, feel it under ur arm for a couple a seconds. Surely that's a good enuff indication of whether it's going to go good, without all the volume intricacies ?

Then again, if ur ordering online u need something to go off. :|

Instead of "board volume" maybe the measurement should be more based around "required buoyancy". ? That way it encompasses more variables than volume alone ?

i.e; surfer of description "v" needs buoyancy "w-x" for wave types/sizes "y-z" v
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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by Nick Carroll » Tue May 20, 2014 5:08 pm

ctd wrote:
Nick Carroll wrote:well ctd that's not quite right, you're thinking about it the wrong way around.quote]

Nick, arent you just proving my point
ha I ain't proving anything hey! maybe we were getting at the same point in different ways.

Anyway, saying it again I know, don't let the detail bog you down, ut's better to think about your surfboards in broader sweeps of thought like that one re planing speeds. Like what happens and what doesn't.

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Re: Hypto Krypto voted "board of the year"

Post by Legion » Wed May 21, 2014 9:45 pm

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Last edited by Legion on Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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