post your modern day sickness

[Natho]

A board can be a quad and still be a hps.i would say the kingpin as an example is more hps than anything.so I'm not sure the hps comment was anything against quads.

[steve shearer]

I think it's a big mistake to conflate the needs of Pros paid to surf and those of recreational surfers (probably one of the biggest, most pervasive and perniciuous myths foisted on the surfing public by surf mags btw).

Super-skilled surfers in top shape have very different equipment needs to joe blow.

Thats why the whole retro thing took off in a sort of parallel universe to Pro surfing.

"Performance" for any recreational surfer is not something they will measure against Fanning,Parko,Dane......it's something they will measure against how they surfed at their peak, when they were in Bali, on that day of days etc etc.
It's an internal, subjective state for the very, very vast majority of surfers who will never have a twelve shot seq broken down for them by Nick Carroll.

Therefore, if that state is heightened by twinzers, quads, bonzers etc etc then "performance" is improving.

I say this from the POV of the vast majority of rec surfers who aren't in boardriders clubs where there surfing is judged etc etc.

They go surfing for the pure fun of it and like to feel an sense of increasing mastery over their equipment and subjective performance.

[Natho]

Hang on shearer, we're you not just trying to justify the whole quad thing by making reference to the pro surfers who ride em? Now you are saying that to conflate the needs of a pro surfer is a big mistake. So in other words your comment re Occy riding a quad at Bells should mean nothing to the average punter.Well I agree then.

[steve shearer]

Nup.

I was referring to Braithys comment that pros or ex Pros don't ride quads etc etc as everyday performance boards.


Of course there are aspects of pro surfing design that can be utilised by rec surfers but by and large Pro surfing by it's very nature is a conservative force in surfboard design.

Parko told me he wanted to ride quads in comps but he was too scared because the judges might not dig it.

But that doesn't change the essential fact that the needs and goals of Pro surfers wrt equipment are often very different and diametrically opposed to rec surfers.

[crabmeat thompson]

I think it's a big mistake to conflate the needs of Pros paid to surf and those of recreational surfers (probably one of the biggest, most pervasive and perniciuous myths foisted on the surfing public by surf mags btw).

They go surfing for the pure fun of it and like to feel an sense of increasing mastery over their equipment and subjective performance.

From my experiences the average punter struggles to afford the time and necessary money to research, trial and error fin placements, types of fins, tailshapes etc to master these new board types if they're background is from hps shorties.

For me personally, I have the most fun on a thruster because I get from point A to point B the most consistently on a hps thruster. I don't boost, my average, everyday surf doesn't entail me getting barrelled or laying down a big throw-away turn while the rest of the wave continues down the point.

I ride it to the sand, run around the point and jump back in, or paddle back out the rip and do it all over again. When I look around, that's most of the guys without the stickers on their boards (in my part of the world, any session is dominated by guys with stickers on their boards) are doing too. And it's happening on hps types of boards.

I think it's also worth noting where people are in their comfort zone in relation to what they grew up, learned on and have spent the most hours in the water riding.

My best mate rides an old twin keel fish and surfs the same as me (point A to B, having the most fun along the way to get there). He hops on my boards and bogs rails, can't make a section, sometimes can't even paddle into waves. I get on his big log, keel things, and can't make a bottom turn, can't climb the wave face, can't for the love of me pump through a section or race a long wall.

I grew up surfing thrusters and he grew up on logs and fish and retro fish with huge amounts of volume. Probably not surprising the most performance board in his quiver is now a roundtail quad by Bourton ... He reckons it goes like nothing else, and is a more modern, polished version of his twin keels. He busts out this board whenever it's a solid 4 foot & over.

Not sure if I just proved your point more, or established mine ... lol

[crabmeat thompson]

Parko told me he wanted to ride quads in comps but he was too scared because the judges might not dig it.

Seems like a strange comment, considering how well Kelly is received riding them. And particularly from a guy like Joel, who has said he's feeling his age, watching all these kids like Kalohe, Jon jon, Owen etc coming through the ranks and ripping and doing aerials he can't.

If anyone would give the quads ago, Parko would be at the top of my list. Especially for something like the breaka pro or Aus open, when there's not a great deal riding on it.

[alakaboo]

I grew up surfing thrusters and he grew up on logs and fish and retro fish with huge amounts of volume. Probably not surprising the most performance board in his quiver is now a roundtail quad

I think that's the most important thing you've said.
I'd be interested to know how many people grew up on high volume boards and went the other way, I'd wager not many.
I'd guess that those like Shearer, and probably most on here, who have recently converted to higher volume boards (mainly quads from the posts) already had a solid foundation of ability that was for the most part developed on thrusters.

I'm like your mate, most of my time has been on logs, singles, eggs and higher volume quads. These designs give undeniable benefits to the recreational surfer.

But I'm about to spend more time on a thruster, because I reckon that they teach you more about active board management and driving off fins and the rear foot of the board.
Then I'll take that back to my other boards and probably not ride a thruster again for a long time.

[Nick Carroll]

Nick, what's the benefits of the carbon flextail? I'm guessing less flex so better hold in bottom turns? And better for down-the-line speed?

Well the carbon's about 6mm thick and it flexes a fair bit more than the foam-glass board body.

I haven't ridden one enough to be able to say much, but it feels to me like the tail acts as a sort of high end suspension system, everything seems smoothed out, the front and back ends of turns are very similar, a beautiful gliding sensation.

I think of it more like a fin than an outline thing, does that make any sense?

This board is a bit different to the ones I've ridden before -- touch more centre rocker and definitely more concave, I have ideas about how that will feel but dunno yet.

[steve shearer]

I'd guess that those like Shearer, and probably most on here, who have recently converted to higher volume boards (mainly quads from the posts) already had a solid foundation of ability that was for the most part developed on thrusters.

Well actually, I've reduced volume for the most part in the last couple of years, mostly as a result of decreasing length.

I went through the ultra-low volume 90's, then back up, and down etc etc.

I never thought I'd ride boards under 6ft again but there ya go.

[ajohnsen]

Nick, what's the benefits of the carbon flextail? I'm guessing less flex so better hold in bottom turns? And better for down-the-line speed?

Well the carbon's about 6mm thick and it flexes a fair bit more than the foam-glass board body.

I haven't ridden one enough to be able to say much, but it feels to me like the tail acts as a sort of high end suspension system, everything seems smoothed out, the front and back ends of turns are very similar, a beautiful gliding sensation.

Makes sense. I guess if it was the same thickness as a regular glass tail it'd be as stiff as.

Does that help cutties flow better from beginning to end without that sometimes need to 'rejig' it a bit midway?

[alakaboo]

Steve:
So how does the total volume you're riding now compare to the total volume you were riding when your learnt your skills?

I'm kind of doing the same wrt lowering volume.
Though I went short and higher volume first, now I'm foiling.

My everyday board is a 5'10", I'm a bit taller than you and weigh about the same I think.
My midlength is a 6'6" and my step up is a 6'3".
5 years ago you could have added half a foot to all of those lengths.

[Nick Carroll]

[quote="alakaboo"
I'd be interested to know how many people grew up on high volume boards and went the other way, I'd wager not many.[/quote]
Well I grew up on 7'0"x 19" x 3" pintails and 6'0" x 20" x 3" roundtail single fins, when I was a grommet weighing between 50 and 65kg.

Slowly went backward on volume as surfboard design progressed through the decades and thrusters came in, rockers got better able to hold speed etc.

Those short wide fat boards aren't really "retro" to me, they're what I rode when they were all there was to ride, and I don't want to go back there!

[Natho]

Im like shearer. Ive in fact reduced volume over the past few months and found my boards are performing better than ever. It happend by mistake when I got a board that was thinner than it should have been. Just so happens that that was one of the best boards Ive ever had. So ive gone thinner and am loving the extra response. Mind you the rockers are a little flatter and Ive gone a fraction wider to compensate. It also gives me more reason to keep up my fitness levels which is a good thing.

[Nick Carroll]

Makes sense. I guess if it was the same thickness as a regular glass tail it'd be as stiff as.

Does that help cutties flow better from beginning to end without that sometimes need to 'rejig' it a bit midway?

Well ya know grimly enough I think the need to re-jig cutties halfway through can arise from many things other than surfboard design

But...yeah as mentioned it does feel to me like everything evens out a bit. Probably not a feeling I would want on every wave or every day, I like abruptness and jagged quick reaction turn angles as much as the next fcuken old school reef-beachie hacker.

I do want to go up and surf shearer's pointbreak on it but, that sort of wave would be sick on the flexy I reckon.

[ajohnsen]

Makes sense. I guess if it was the same thickness as a regular glass tail it'd be as stiff as.

Does that help cutties flow better from beginning to end without that sometimes need to 'rejig' it a bit midway?

Well ya know grimly enough I think the need to re-jig cutties halfway through can arise from many things other than surfboard design

But...yeah as mentioned it does feel to me like everything evens out a bit. Probably not a feeling I would want on every wave or every day, I like abruptness and jagged quick reaction turn angles as much as the next fcuken old school reef-beachie hacker.

I do want to go up and surf shearer's pointbreak on it but, that sort of wave would be sick on the flexy I reckon.

Ah yeah, not withstanding operator error!

And this gave me a better idea

...I like abruptness and jagged quick reaction turn angles...

[steve shearer]

Steve:
So how does the total volume you're riding now compare to the total volume you were riding when your learnt your skills?

Way lower.

I learnt on high vol single fins.

But I will say that volume is highly fashion dependent.

My favourite surfing of all time is Curren riding longer and higher vol boards in Searching for TC........

Those volumes and rail lengths are just no longer used by top level Pros.

My favourite feeling surfing is probably done on 7-8ft semi-guns in 6-12ft surf.

I go up and down with volume depending on the surf and what kind of physical and mental shape I'm in.

[steve shearer]

I do want to go up and surf shearer's pointbreak on it but, that sort of wave would be sick on the flexy I reckon.

Yeah, I would think so too.

I had that MItchell Rae flex-tail that went so good at G-land and Bali (hey Black Duck you surfed it yet?) but I could never really come to grips with it at the Points around here. It just seemed too .......weird ./.... at times...

IN clean hollow reef surf though........

[crabmeat thompson]

What's the most important surfboard design element today for everyone?

Foil, length, volume, rocker, plan-shape, something else?

For me it's the rails. I can ride all kinds of boards at different lengths and widths and volumes and get them to go. But the rails have to be low. If they're boxy or full I struggle to get any kind of flow happening. (as long as it's 3 fins )

This by automation has led me to be back where I was 5 or 6 years ago, riding boards with less volume.

I only came to this realisation really recently. As in the last couple of months recently.