Yet another fin question

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bookster
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Yet another fin question

Post by bookster » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:40 pm

Help me get my head around fin principles please...

Got myself a new board a month or so, pictured below:

Image

Image

It's 6'2" 19¼" 2½" and came with FCS FG-7 fins - though I have been back to see the shaper and have replaced the back fin with an FG-5, which I did find improved the feel of the board considerably. Have tried 5's for all 3 fins and liked it, but only ridden that once.

My question is for my weight (74kg, 178cm), should I be on 5's all the time? Shaper was saying the 5's are really more for smaller waves, but I hear so much conflicting stuff about fins I'm not sure who to believe.

I'm going to be taking the board with me to the mentawais in about 3 weeks time for when it is fun sized, so a bit unsure what to do fin wise. Would the bigger fins be better in down the line waves i.e. more drive or does a smaller fin mean less drag? Of course I could buy a set of 5's and have the 7's as well, but when I can swap for free... I'd rather save a few $$

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by Quangers » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:37 pm

I'm no expert, but I use 5s in bigger surf and 3s in smaller stuff. I weigh about the same as you - I've never tried 7s though.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by Topher » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:06 am

Nice looking board. Patterson's got a few sick looking boards in the factory at the moment eh?

I'm no expert either but I'm also almost exactly the same size as you, I always used 5's. I am trying a board at the moment with k3's (very raked size 5ish sides and m3 centre) and that seems to work very ok for me.

I used to think bigger fins was better - but I think as I surf more and get a bit better I am changing my mind.

I got an old set of pc5's that I'm not using if ya want to give them a try/buy - I'm cronullaish too.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by bohdidontsurf » Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:51 pm

bookster wrote:Help me get my head around fin principles please...

Got myself a new board a month or so, pictured below:

Image

Image

It's 6'2" 19¼" 2½" and came with FCS FG-7 fins - though I have been back to see the shaper and have replaced the back fin with an FG-5, which I did find improved the feel of the board considerably. Have tried 5's for all 3 fins and liked it, but only ridden that once.

My question is for my weight (74kg, 178cm), should I be on 5's all the time? Shaper was saying the 5's are really more for smaller waves, but I hear so much conflicting stuff about fins I'm not sure who to believe.

I'm going to be taking the board with me to the mentawais in about 3 weeks time for when it is fun sized, so a bit unsure what to do fin wise. Would the bigger fins be better in down the line waves i.e. more drive or does a smaller fin mean less drag? Of course I could buy a set of 5's and have the 7's as well, but when I can swap for free... I'd rather save a few $$
Hey Topher I ride the same kind of board dims as you. I am 175 (bit shorter) but weigh 83kgs (so a lot heavier). I have mucked around with fins a lot. I mostly ride 5's. I like the k2.1's which have a bit more base, are more upright and have a wider tip than M5's. I ride a lot of quads but also ride thrusters and dont really go up a size when dropping a fin when riding thrusters. Arguably I ride fins that may be considered too small for my weight but I dont find I lack drive using 5's in smallish to medium surf. I think most people would be surprised how little fins come into it and how much rails play a part. Not saying fins dont have an effect, they certainly do, but rails also play a big part. When it gets 6ft plus I usually drop fin sizes if I am on a step up or a gun. You dont need as much fin when you have more rail in the water (longer board). I also tend to use fins with more rake when it gets bigger. You get a bit more hold and projection with more raky fins as opposed to more upright fins such as the K2.1. I also use the K3 for bigger surf. I do have sets of 7's and AM'2 both are considered a large fin. I also use the Simon template in a large size, but I use these fins mostly for small wave boards. In small waves , when your using a smaller board, you need more fin as you have less rail. As for the ments, I dont think drive will be your issue, it will be control. You will have plenty of speed you just need to control it. I took only 5's or the like over there when I went and mostly used rakey fins like the K3, AM1 etc. Stick with them. I think PC5's will be a good neutral fin to take over there. Hope that helps.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by DV8 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:27 pm

bohdidontsurf wrote:
bookster wrote:Help me get my head around fin principles please...

Hey Topher I ride the same kind of board dims as you. I am 175 (bit shorter) but weigh 83kgs (so a lot heavier). I have mucked around with fins a lot. I mostly ride 5's. I like the k2.1's which have a bit more base, are more upright and have a wider tip than M5's. I ride a lot of quads but also ride thrusters and dont really go up a size when dropping a fin when riding thrusters. Arguably I ride fins that may be considered too small for my weight but I dont find I lack drive using 5's in smallish to medium surf. I think most people would be surprised how little fins come into it and how much rails play a part. Not saying fins dont have an effect, they certainly do, but rails also play a big part. When it gets 6ft plus I usually drop fin sizes if I am on a step up or a gun. You dont need as much fin when you have more rail in the water (longer board). I also tend to use fins with more rake when it gets bigger. You get a bit more hold and projection with more raky fins as opposed to more upright fins such as the K2.1. I also use the K3 for bigger surf. I do have sets of 7's and AM'2 both are considered a large fin. I also use the Simon template in a large size, but I use these fins mostly for small wave boards. In small waves , when your using a smaller board, you need more fin as you have less rail. As for the ments, I dont think drive will be your issue, it will be control. You will have plenty of speed you just need to control it. I took only 5's or the like over there when I went and mostly used rakey fins like the K3, AM1 etc. Stick with them. I think PC5's will be a good neutral fin to take over there. Hope that helps.
Jeez Bohdi ,

Are you sure you believe your own wisdom ?

Go the 5"s bookster , just find a construction material you like .

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by bohdidontsurf » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:43 pm

Very sure DV8 you doubting thomas !!. Ever seen the fins on real gun boards? Very small. 3.75 to 4 inch depth compared to 4.5-5.0 for smaller boards ...same sized rider. Do your homework DV8.....or better still challenge what you read with an opinion of your own.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by DV8 » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:51 pm

bohdidontsurf wrote:Very sure DV8 you doubting thomas !!. Ever seen the fins on real gun boards? Very small. 3.75 to 4 inch depth compared to 4.5-5.0 for smaller boards ...same sized rider. Do your homework DV8.....or better still challenge what you read with an opinion of your own.
Hard day at work mate .......... Bit edgy ...............not everyone is having a go ya know !

Just stating that for someone who believes fins play a smaller part you sure do change them around.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by bohdidontsurf » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:19 pm

Lol, no wasnt meant to be edgy, just pulling your tits, maybe should have thrown a few lol's in there. Mate cant be pissed off when you see what Josh is making me. So stoked.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by ric_vidal » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:10 am

bohdidontsurf wrote:Ever seen the fins on real gun boards? Very small. 3.75 to 4 inch depth compared to 4.5-5.0 for smaller boards ...same sized rider.
Not really relevant, Bohds... as they more than likely have zero toe-in as well. Guns are for pretty much going straight or bloody long drawn out turns, not what Bookster is searching for.

Too many variables, Bookster, like rail thickness and tail rocker, but your weight suggests 5s. Want to loosen it up try a smaller or more upright back fin as you are already doing.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by bookster » Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:59 am

Thanks for the feedback guys... think I might go swap the 7's for 5's and see how it goes.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by Davros » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:33 am

Sweet looking board.
Last edited by Davros on Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by Cpt.Caveman » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:01 pm

I'd recommend trying a few different combos and seeing which feels the best. There is no perfect combination for fins, it depends on what feeling you want in the board and how the fins react with the overall design of the board.

Some general principles:

- Increasing fin size in the front fins generally gives your more drive but it also nakes it a little harder to turn.

- Using fins that are upright and with les rake (e.g. K2.1) will pivot better and release earlier in the turn.

- If you want your board to feel looser, but without sacrificing as much drive or hold, decreasing the size of the rear fin is often a good option.
Davros wrote:Ego saved - surfing experience rubbish.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by dUg » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:34 pm

bookster wrote:Thanks for the feedback guys... think I might go swap the 7's for 5's and see how it goes.

Don't dorget... 5's are a generic template... you can buy some non-FCS ones online that are pretty much identical and will allow you to "test drive" that shape without it costing you $110+. :)

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by pinhead » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:41 pm

For my small wave boards - shorter, flater, wider tail I like bigger fins upfront with a wider base, smaller fin in back, as the waves get more power I prefer less area and more rake with all fins the same size. Similar to Bohdi's experience. BTW Bohdi I saw your new stick on the comsand thread - sweet!

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by Cpt.Caveman » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:03 am

I forgot to mention another advantage of trying many different fins. Once you have tried a wide range of fin shapes and pay good attention to the effect of base, area, rake, depth, etc, you get to the point that you know what type of fin you need for the feel that you want.

For example, I won't think I want an M5 fin, I'll think that I want a fin with slightly less area and more rake. If M5 is the closest fit then I'll use that. If I want a fin with less rake but without decreasing area, K2.1 is the closest fit, etc.
Davros wrote:Ego saved - surfing experience rubbish.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by bookster » Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:29 pm

Thanks for expanding my knowledge on all things finnish, guys :)

Ended up buying a set of FG-5 fins for a good price rather than swapping them, as I had actually enjoyed riding the 7 front/5 rear combo a few weekends ago down the coast in some decent waves, so thought it may be worth having more options.

Another question - seems the generic g-5 fins that come with a lot of new boards are seen as something to get off your board as quick as possible. They certainly have a lot of flex in them, surely they have to be good for something :arrow: and I don't mean wedged under the screen door to keep it from banging... is a lot of flex desirable in real small stuff?

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by Cpt.Caveman » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:47 am

A more flexible fin like the glassflex or the old black composite materials will feel more forgiving in turns, but a little bit slower. A stiffer fin like a fibreglass fin is going to transfer more of your turning pressure into forward speed, as being stiffer it generates better leverage.

Thats as far as I understand..
Davros wrote:Ego saved - surfing experience rubbish.

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Re: Yet another fin question

Post by Nick Carroll » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:30 am

hey bookster, I'm sure you will be fine with the FG5 fins in that board.

Fin type and overall surface area relates to quite a few things but probably the biggest is tail surface area. The fin set has to get close to matching the tail area it's supposed to be controlling.

That's probably why 5s feel good on that board -- it looks like something fairly standard for a guy of your weight, a tail of around 14-and-a-bit inches, pretty much just what the 5 template was designed to fit originally back in the late 1990s.

7s would function better on a wider tailed craft made for a bigger heavier person -- that's really why bigger heavier guys tend to use bigger fins, not 'cause they're more powerful surfers, but because they need the extra fin area to control the extra tail area.

That's conventional thinking anyway. I'm not talking about people like Hynd who no longer cares for fins of any kind.

You can go a bit smaller with a very rigid or otherwise tip-flex-tuned fin -- I'm kind of a fan of doing that, to try to reduce fin drag as much as possible. Not a fan of soggy fin materials; they've worked OK in a couple of boards, usually as Whitemonkey points out, because they've been super rigid boards (carbonised or whatever) that needed softening somewhere. But in Indo, no.

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