Beyond the blue ...

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icepick
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Beyond the blue ...

Post by icepick » Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:57 am

Hey Crew,

A few of us around here have been touched by the black dog, depression ... or whatever you want to call it.

Simon, hope your brother is doing better.

Steve, your comments linking your surfing buzz to Simon's brother really got me thinking ...

I've suffered with the Depression, and as I've now learned, anxiety, for years. I've lost $100's of thousands of dollars because of it, but, money is not the issue here, it's how people deal with it ... and what causes it. I'm happy to elaborate if anyone wants to know more ... but, let me just say this. Matters of the mind, depression, anxiety, etc. all have a common link in the brain chemistry and ya local GP doc is really good are prescribing a band aid fix. Since my last crash in 2006, I've been looking for the underlying reasons. The biochemical process in our bodies is complex and amazing.

I've recently found my 'missing link' and have slowing come out of the deep dark.

For anyone who is suffering, you know only too well that journey is unique to you, and you have to find the way out ... call it what you will, or want. It's a fog, a haze, a distortion and one that causes many many unwanted impacts; for those suffering, their families and friends.

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by offshore1 » Sat Sep 13, 2014 7:11 am

Glad to hear you're going ok now icepick.I'm afraid though realsurf will send you back over the edge for good. We're one motley collection of sick fcuks.

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by packa » Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:56 am

When public figures make headline news and there is some 'blitz' on getting help, well it's all and dandy, but, from my perspective it's all crap.

I tried to call lifeline ... have done so, three times, in major distress ... on hold all three occasions.

What pulls you back from the edge is an individual experience. Everyone has to answer that for them self, and find their own path ... I'll talk about my experience in the hope it helps someone else, or, help others understand so they can help someone.

Let's start with the basic. If YOU ask someone how they are, or better still "Are you OK?" that is not the end of the conversation. It's just the start, actually, it's probably more likely not even the most important step ... it's what the person says to you in response, how you hear what is said, and THEN what you ask, say or do ...

Think about it.

Most people in distress DO NOT ASK FOR HELP.

So, when asked "are you OK?" ... their response will be yes, or dismissive, or avoidance, or whatever ... it's a private shame they are dealing with and to confront it when someone asks "are you ok?" is tough.

So, what do YOU do next?

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by tonks » Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:31 pm

Good on ya Icepick for having the courage to speak about your experiences. And I'm glad to hear you're on the mend or, as you say, coming out of the deep dark.

I'm another who has battled with the black dog and anxiety throughout life. I feel like I 'lost' the best part of ten years of my young adulthood because of it, years that are meant to be our most productive. It can be a debilitating condition. The last few years have been OK but I'm starting to slip into the darkness again. Will have to start being proactive to avoid sinking further.

I recently heard an interesting quote about depression - Depression is starvation of the soul.

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by icepick » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:08 pm

Hey Tonks, and everyone else who is, has, or knows someone who is or has ...

Have you seen this one on Facebook?
facebbook depression chain letter type sign.jpg
facebbook depression chain letter type sign.jpg (15.33 KiB) Viewed 1915 times

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by icepick » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:13 pm

tonks wrote: ... I'm starting to slip into the darkness again. Will have to start being proactive to avoid sinking further ...
Tonks, if ya don't mind sharing, what are YOUR proactive things, steps, whatever that you take or do to stop sinking further?

And, how do you "know" you are starting to sink further? Is it a feeling, sense of things, or what?

Again, only if ya want to share ...

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by icepick » Sun Sep 21, 2014 6:36 pm

I found this article very very good:

http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/2013/dep ... roduction/

It's heavy going but explains a lot of what is going on with the body chemical processes linked with depression. It was my starting point.

I have NEVER taken any prescription antidepressants. My thoughts, view, being that my 'depression' is "caused" by some underlying reason with the Doctor prescribed antidepressants just basically a 'band aide' on the current wound to treat the symptom. I wanted to know the CAUSE and to treat THAT.

That was where, how, I got onto Magnesium supplements. Some of you will remember the previous information I shared on here about that ... but, I could not crack the underlying reason, and would sink again, usually under stress, which is what's happened recently again with the situation with my wife.

I have now, only recently found out, via a specific test that I have a liver function defect that is inbuilt to my DNA. It's a called, among other names, "pyrrole disorder" or "mauve factor" (which, apparently affects about 10% of the Australian population >><< )... the core issue with this condition is that my body excretes too much zinc and B6 before my body chemistry can use them (read that article linked above and you'll know the importance of both, and their link with depression).

The simple, non drug solution, is to take high, like mega high, doses of zinc and B6, along with magnesium, manganese.

I'm currently taking 800mg of zinc per day, 500mg B6, 120mg manganese, and 1200mg of magnesium. All in their most active forms. I started about 4 weeks ago, progressively built up to those levels, and have slowly emerged from the horrendous funk that had enveloped my mind and body. Let's see how I go in the next few ...

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by alakaboo » Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:27 pm

Do you set off metal detectors?

Good on both of you

Trev, wherever you've got to, this topic comes up on the front page before login, maybe it would get more discussion if it didn't...

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by ctd » Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:12 pm

depressionlies.jpg
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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by packa » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:05 am

alakaboo wrote: ... this topic comes up on the front page before login, maybe it would get more discussion if it didn't...
Hey 'boo ... maybe, just maybe that is actually part of the problem. It is a touchy subject. Sheesh, I've been locked away inside our house avoiding the world due to the effects of Depression and Anxiety, so know from my own internal view of this that sharing and talking about it is hard ...

But.

How the heck can we hope to reduce the stigma if it's a subject discussed 'in quiet'?

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by steve shearer » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:06 pm

packa wrote:
Let's start with the basic. If YOU ask someone how they are, or better still "Are you OK?" that is not the end of the conversation. It's just the start, actually, it's probably more likely not even the most important step ... it's what the person says to you in response, how you hear what is said, and THEN what you ask, say or do ...

Think about it.

Most people in distress DO NOT ASK FOR HELP.

So, when asked "are you OK?" ... their response will be yes, or dismissive, or avoidance, or whatever ... it's a private shame they are dealing with and to confront it when someone asks "are you ok?" is tough.

So, what do YOU do next?
Good question. Any ideas?
I want Nightclub Dwight dead in his grave I want the nice-nice up in blazes

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by tonks » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:33 pm


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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by alakaboo » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:59 pm

Don't have an answer, packa, that's why I wrote it as I did. Happy to take advice from people who have more knowledge and experience as to what works for them.

Icepick, are your skin issues clearing up now that you are seeing some improvement?

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by packa » Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:32 am

steve shearer wrote:
packa wrote:
Let's start with the basic. If YOU ask someone how they are, or better still "Are you OK?" that is not the end of the conversation. It's just the start, actually, it's probably more likely not even the most important step ... it's what the person says to you in response, how you hear what is said, and THEN what you ask, say or do ...

Think about it.

Most people in distress DO NOT ASK FOR HELP.

So, when asked "are you OK?" ... their response will be yes, or dismissive, or avoidance, or whatever ... it's a private shame they are dealing with and to confront it when someone asks "are you ok?" is tough.

So, what do YOU do next?
Good question. Any ideas?
Good onya for weighing in here ... hell knows this is an uncomfortable subject.

As tonks posted, some good info at "beyond blue" and also 'the black dog institute' websites.

From my experience and first hand knowledge of both suffering and supporting others with it, my suggestions are:

1. Don't be afraid of saying the wrong thing. I'll use an example. Maybe you all remember the case where a person, having had a car accident, was slumped over their steering wheel, wind pipe being held closed by their head leaning forward. People, first on the scene were worried, concerned, scared, whatever if they touched this person they might break their neck ... truth is, doing nothing is more likely to kill them. Reach in, gently lift the head up and see what happens ... that is my recommendation here. Doing nothing is NOT an option.

2. In order to achieve action 1 ... YOU have to get over YOUR preconceived ideas about the illness. Read the link to the article "depression, a disease of energy production' and get it through your head, however possible, that this "mental illness' does not mean the person is a raving lunatic that might kill you. Their body has shut down, and gave up the fight, so they need someone to lift up their head and help them breathe.

3. So, you've got through 1 and 2, asked "are you OK?" or "how are you?" and got the dismissive, or avoidance response, or the feign 'yes', "i'm ok, why?" ... whatever ... now, truth is your are not talking to a total stranger, this is someone you have known, and have seen in a different functional state. Have you noticed any differences in them? Usually clean shaven, now a bit scruffy, clothes not as sharp, not been surfing, fishing on seen them around ... maybe their lawns and gardens have become less cared for, weeds, longer grass, maybe it's their car - usually clean now dirty ... whatever. These are all signs of the body having given up and it is putting energy into just surviving. So, the key here is to notice what they are NOT saying.

4. That brings us to this ... get them talking. Ask about their family, their interests, surfing, fishing, whatever ... they have interests and when this illness gets them, they go out the window, they just don't give a rats arse about them, and when they talk about them, they will be negative, flat, even non committal ... when usually, remember you'll usually now this person, they would have talk about their last few surfs, where they went fishing, what the kids are doing, etc ... so, get them talking, ask more questions, subtly, about things you know they would have normally be interested in, and listen, really listen to what and how they respond ...

5. Then, now, you have some more info to repeat you initial question. "Mate, you don't sound yourself, are you ok?" ... listen, listen for the response. You'll not want to push it, and they will show obvious signs of being uncomfortable, and you don't want to now close that off ... so, my recommendation is to give them space, time, air ... to respond, sit in quiet, say nothing if need be ... then, if your genuine, hell YOU are, you've got this far, you can offer "mate, if you ever you need to talk", "wanna catch up for a beer", 'how about we grab a coffee" ...

And you know what, just THAT, very simple gesture can lift the mood. To know someone cares, someone who may be an almost stranger cares enough to reach out ...

:arrow: Thanks Craig. It was a small gesture but did lift the mood. :wink:

6. Now, if you know this person, have their contact number, or know where they live ... make some regular contact. And, when you do, be honest. Say straight, "I'm worried about you, thought I'd touch base ...", "how are you going, last time we spoke you seemed pretty flat, down, not your usual self' ... and again, listen, listen to what they say and how they say it ... YOU can't crack this by pushing, by forcing them, but ... the simple gesture of showing concern and that YOU care enough to ask can really really help. They feel alone, they feel disconnected, and YOUR actions help to keep them connected ... even though they may not say it, or show it, they will benefit from you taking the time to connect with them ...

7. And repeat 6 every few days, or daily, or weekly ... feel it out, see how they are ... act with genuine concern and humility and it will be fine. Just remember, this is about them, and not you. Get over your fears, take the step and connect, reach out and keep in contact ...

How's that Steve, give you a starting point?

Anyone else with experience have anything to add or disagree with?

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by andy2476 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:32 am

thats great advice packa. Of course if they were a muslim who was depressed because they couldn't practice sharia law you'd just tell em to fuck off back to where they came from.
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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by icepick » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:43 pm

I've posted this in the other thread, but thought it worth while having in the public thread too.

Crew, just speaking from my experience and what I learn ...

Went and saw my new Doc yesterday. Good Doc, second appt, follow up ... He's not a take this prescription drug type doc though, and is very active in ACNEM (Australia College of Nutritional and Environmental Medicine), here's a link:http://www.acnem.org/ ... great source if you want a Doc who treats the underlying issues.

He was explaining more about the Zinc impact for me (i.e. due to the Pyrrole disorder that I have) and my Depression ... I thought I should share.

His explanation is that the body uses Zinc in almost every chemical process, and the big ones like neurotransmitters for the brain, obviously are super important and affected when issues like Depression and Anxiety are encountered. What he said was that the body takes away the zinc from the neurotransmitter production process to use elsewhere when the body is say stressed, run down, has an infection, or even "perceives it has" ... now that's the key.

For example, with say gluten and diary, for some people, their bodies actually "see" gluten and diary as a poison, so it sets about attacking it by sending zinc bullets. Yep, the same zinc the body needs for the neurotransmitter production, and hence the incidence of depression linking with things like gluten and dairy ... and alcohol, etc. (note: alcohol is also linked with Vitamin B6, but that's another tangent)

But, more so too when you're stressed, the body uses the zinc and magnesium to build energy blocks to power through, and after a while, with the adrenal system pumping, it just wears down, and so uses more zinc to fight and keep going, and again, has taken more zinc away from the neurotransmitter production process, and hence the incidence of Depression and Anxiety linked with stress.

So, long story, short version - zinc is very important in the dealing with Depression. According to my Doc, this is only just becoming known through the medical world with most GP's still very much in the dark. Could be worth looking into if you or anyone you know is suffering Depression.

But, make sure you get a good Doc ... well worth looking into ones who are part of ACNEM (see link above).

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by icepick » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:45 pm

andy2476 wrote:thats great advice packa. Of course if they were a muslim who was depressed because they couldn't practice sharia law you'd just tell em to try again off back to where they came from.
Oh dear, only you could. Why? There is no need. Please get help. Please.

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Re: Beyond the blue ...

Post by icepick » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:47 pm

saltman wrote:Great advice Packa - been dealing with the black dog for close to 20 years now
Do not put off looking for help
start with a good doctor
dont stop there
and dont give up - ever
Hey Saltman ... yep, a good Doc is really important.

Glad you threw your hat into this ring.

We gotta break the stigma, and help others get out of the funk ... you got any tips for getting out of the haze? Or, stopping from falling back into it?

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