Ask Carroll

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MrMik
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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by MrMik » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:31 am

Beerfan wrote:
MrMik wrote:Surely you must have a board that works well, rather than some beast that even an expert surfer would not enjoy? If you want the bug to bite, then make sure the kids catch waves. And they'll very quickly progress, so a board that is forgiving (doesn't nose dive easily) but allows real turns should be on hand.
Huh? Yeah ok I'll put her straight on hpsb, she'll pick it up in no time, yeah.

The egg surfs, and surfs ok, it's just a cruiser really. Single fin so basically just glides and "veers". I've only surfed it a few times, always went back to my fish for similar waves. Stable too for my daughter. She also does nippers so a nipper board would come in pretty handy. A nipper board can also be used in total junk close out whitewater. The aim is to get her used to paddling for and catching waves. If she picks it up very quickly and shows interest in wanting to surf I'll get her a soft board for sure.
..... Pretty rough all round, the outlines about the only thing I got right!
I took that to mean that the rocker, rails and fin placement are all wrong.... :D

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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Roy_Stewart » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:23 am

pinhead wrote:
Beerfan wrote:I like how some single concave boards can end up being flat when a straight edge is laid across the bottom at 45deg. Mind fkukk or what
I think that would be a fairly massive clue to how concaves might work.

Water seeks the shortest path and faster moving water creates more lift. The water moves faster relative to your board providing more lift when at 45 i.e doing a turn. That extra lift tapers off as you transition to the opposite rail and angle of attack is more straight on. As the angle of attack swings back to 135 deg the water runs along the shortest path and lift increases. This is how concaves provide both speed and control.
Er no the water doesn't flow faster across the bottom during a turn, the greater lift is due to an increase in pressure and a change in the aspect ratio of the hull i.e. it becomes effectively shorter and wider, which causes it to produce lift more efficiently.


.

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pinhead
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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by pinhead » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:20 pm

Roy_Stewart wrote:
pinhead wrote:
Beerfan wrote:I

Er no the water doesn't flow faster across the bottom during a turn, the greater lift is due to an increase in pressure and a change in the aspect ratio of the hull i.e. it becomes effectively shorter and wider, which causes it to produce lift more efficiently.


.
So pedantic Roy..

Thats what I was trying to say in a very shorthand and overly simplistic manner.

Your description is more accurate and technically correct.

The feeling of both acceleration and control you get with carving turns on a HPSB was something I had trouble reconciling with what shapers said concave did - provides speed and control. This seemed contradictory to me. Then I saw on YouTube Maurice Cole showing the change in aspect ratio as he rotated a straight edge across the rocker of one of his boards and the penny dropped.

HPSB surfing is built around the front footed bottom turn. You need to maximise upward pressure on the inside rail just before you unweight to get maximum speed to set up a top turn. i think the angle of attack at this stage of the turn is about 45 so concave makes the aspect ratio optimal. When you're turning back down you want lift under the outside rail to pull the board around and in this case I think the angle of attack is 45ish. When you've completed your turn and are sliding down the face you want less lift i.e you don't want to get hung up in the lip. The less efficient longer aspect ration in this stage of the turn is helpful in that you can fall faster.

Obviously theres a hell of a lot more going on here - drag and lift from rails and fins, input from rider, wave dynamics and so on.

Beerfan

Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Beerfan » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:51 pm

MrMik wrote:
Beerfan wrote:
MrMik wrote:Surely you must have a board that works well, rather than some beast that even an expert surfer would not enjoy? If you want the bug to bite, then make sure the kids catch waves. And they'll very quickly progress, so a board that is forgiving (doesn't nose dive easily) but allows real turns should be on hand.
Huh? Yeah ok I'll put her straight on hpsb, she'll pick it up in no time, yeah.

The egg surfs, and surfs ok, it's just a cruiser really. Single fin so basically just glides and "veers". I've only surfed it a few times, always went back to my fish for similar waves. Stable too for my daughter. She also does nippers so a nipper board would come in pretty handy. A nipper board can also be used in total junk close out whitewater. The aim is to get her used to paddling for and catching waves. If she picks it up very quickly and shows interest in wanting to surf I'll get her a soft board for sure.
..... Pretty rough all round, the outlines about the only thing I got right!
I took that to mean that the rocker, rails and fin placement are all wrong.... :D

Still surfs better than a 5'9" x 100ltr nugget though :D

Beerfan

Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Beerfan » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:57 pm

So it looks like the egg wins. Took the 3 kids to an inlet at the end of a local beach, perfect for kids learning to surf. Got them all onto a few smaller waves and by the end of it the older 2 started getting the hang of paddling at least. Standing might be a bit more tricky but kids being kids they pick stuff up pretty quick. I'll still look into a nipper board but bring the egg with us to the beach.

Pretty stoked :)

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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Nick Carroll » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:12 pm

alakaboo wrote:Nick when do you think you surfed your best?
Both in and out of competition.
Ummm fcuk that's a bit tricky, like many surfers I have had different peaks and troughs.

I went up and down with competition, to me that's partly mental state (did I give a fcuk) and partly heat practice (you get way better if you surf concentrated bursts of heats)

I felt like in the first half of 1980 I was on a performance high and surfing pretty much as good as anyone in the world. In Hawaii in 1985 and 1986 I was really at a peak, like a first peak in those conditions, and was right there with anyone - felt like I was willing to take big risks in gnarly waves and pull 'em off, good boards, very confident

Had another quite long peak starting in 1994, mainly because of good boards (the first wave of skinny super concave boards had passed and boards had shrunk a bit and gone wider comparatively), I really connected with that partly thanks to Kelly who lent me his old frog vs stork board, it was magic and kicked me off. Then leaving the US and coming home in 97 and surfing two weeks of perfect GLand and two weeks in the Mentawais back to back was a sort of culmination of that peak.

Went up and down from then for a little while but I did find that around 2002-3 that surfing almost quite suddenly became easier, I had improved some things in my technique and maybe was stimulated by Parko/Fanning/AI. I dunno, I felt less resistance in myself too in some ways, I think its very easy to get in your own way with surfing and that just kinda stopped happening.

I feel now that I am a bit beyond peaks and troughs. I know how to surf myself back up to my best level but I don't feel I have to be at that level all the time. Physical and mental fitness is the key at my age and I guess I am preparing myself now for the next 20 years. I have a picture of myself surfing at 75 and what that will be like, but I've gotta make sure I don't get badly hurt, because a bad bone fracture or spinal damage might wreck that time for me.

One thng that's helping me and others of my generation is the steady improvement in equipment, that's kind of a given, boards will keep getting better for as long as I'm alive I think, which is pretty huge.

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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Beanpole » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:14 pm

Nick, I was reading about the 12 second rule for wipeouts in a blog.
That is that nearly all wipeouts will only hold you down for 12 seconds.
What do you reckon?
Put your big boy pants on
I mean, tastebuds? WGAF?

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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Nick Carroll » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:20 pm

Matticus Finch wrote:
Nick Carroll wrote:
yeah, principally I wanna know if the session feels easier or harder than it did at the start.
Short Answer: Yes, but I can only really gauge that by backstroke and the 25m underwater swim at the end.

Rambling Tangential Answer: This is by far the very best part of my week, I wake up pleased it's a swimming day. It's not effortless, but I don't really feel all that taxed at the end, I want to keep going, it's an effort to stop myself. Backstroke is not so enjoyable but I'm improving, I've started going a bit straighter and getting less water up my nose. I'm starting to get confident enough to do it if someone is in the lane and coming towards me though I still hit the ropes a bit. I am glad when backstroke ends and it goes back to freestyle. The underwater thing I dropped to about 10m when I changed to dolphin and freestyle kicking, it just isn't feeling right yet, I can't do it properly. I am consistently getting the 25m now but it is a stretch and by no means comfortable. I'm kicking off the wall too if that's cheating.

Sometimes I think I've lost track and will do an extra lap rather than cut it short. Sometimes I just concentrate on breathing, I've settled into an every 5 strokes breath. Sometimes I find something like gears on a bike, by moving my arms and hands differently and I'll try something for a lap or two, I'll feel like I'm moving much faster through the water but arms are actually going slower. Sometimes it's kicking, the different ways to move from knees and hips, even just trying to keep my legs up rather than sinking or being aware of where they are. I try to find a way to have the kick sync in a pattern with the arms and breathing and this is somewhere I'm failing, every now and then I find it but then I turn around at the end and it's lost in the pause.

I'm certainly not pushing myself, it's a more steady rhythm I've been trying to find but I will do at least one power-gear lap, usually around 800m and I try not to rest much unless I have to wait for others.

I like the muffled sounds, the way my ears fill up with water and how it stays there even while I breathe, the shifting of worlds, the absence of noise and interaction, the rhythm and feel of the bubbles, the constant exhale.

I don't like my goggles fogging up.
Well this is all good. I'll come up with a new set for you tomorrow.

re goggles, you can spit in em like boo says but what works better is if every now and then you wash'em with warm water and detergent. Make sure you give them a good rinse so you don't get detergent eyes when you swim next.

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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Nick Carroll » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:24 pm

Beanpole wrote:Nick, I was reading about the 12 second rule for wipeouts in a blog.
That is that nearly all wipeouts will only hold you down for 12 seconds.
What do you reckon?
I reckon so what?

Like wipeouts are of very little consequence in most surf anyway, who cares how long you're underwater.

Beanpole
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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Beanpole » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:26 pm

Um, this was in the context of larger surf rather than the 1 foot shorey at Coogee.
Put your big boy pants on
I mean, tastebuds? WGAF?

Little
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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Little » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:42 pm

Nick, You and your brother are fairly similar physically and I'm guessing similar upbringing/nurturing childhood by the sea. Both top echelon competitive surfers. Can you put your finger on what makes a world champion?

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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Nick Carroll » Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:05 pm

Little wrote:Nick, You and your brother are fairly similar physically and I'm guessing similar upbringing/nurturing childhood by the sea. Both top echelon competitive surfers. Can you put your finger on what makes a world champion?
It's a complex one. There's always a lot of things involved, sorta falling together to make it happen. I think in Tom's case, he had some amazing strengths as a surfer, an ability to focus quite narrowly but intensely on a goal, a willingness to see himself as a world champion, a really great range of support, and great timing - the whole surfing culture was primed to see him as world champ and there was very little resistance to the idea even among his pro peers. Once he was set and going, only one or two surfers really tried to stop him. For each of the world surfing champs who I've watched really closely, these ingredients have fallen together a bit differently and challenged different parts of them at different times. But all except perhaps CJ Hobgood have had that willingness, either inbuilt or hard-earned, to picture themselves as the champ. I never had that, or I would have made Tom's life hell; I didn't have his strengths as a surfer but I did have some heavy strengths of my own and I definitely had the wood on him psychologically. I was incapable of standing in his way though, everything about our childhoods and early youths drove me to protect him and help him achieve what he needed to achieve. This was both good and bad as people who've read "TC" will hopefully have gleaned. But I didn't give that kind of a shit about it myself anyway.

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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Beanpole » Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:25 pm

Nick Carroll wrote:
Beanpole wrote:Nick, I was reading about the 12 second rule for wipeouts in a blog.
That is that nearly all wipeouts will only hold you down for 12 seconds.
What do you reckon?
I reckon so what?

Like wipeouts are of very little consequence in most surf anyway, who cares how long you're underwater.
Ever counted?
Put your big boy pants on
I mean, tastebuds? WGAF?

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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Nick Carroll » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:45 pm

nah. but think it through. if youre surfing a typical sydney windswell the waves are coming at between six and eight seconds apart. if you fall off and come up before the next wave then even allowing for wave drag you're only under forless than six or eight seconds. in a long interval groundswell in indo, about 14 seconds, well if you wipeout then come up with a few seconds before the next wave, then you've been under for less than than 14 seconds. Its really not that long. wipeouts only ever become an issue if you hit the reef or your board hard enough to be knocked unconscious. or if you have a two or three wave hold down in big surf in Hawaii or somwhere the interval is in the 20 second range. that'll change how you think about surfing.

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swvic
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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by swvic » Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:20 pm

You've probably already used detergent, MF, but toothpaste is better. Same effect, but lasts longer
marcus wrote:and that vicco dude, whatsisname?

Beanpole
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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Beanpole » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:33 am

I should point out at this stage I go blank when the description of wave intervals enters the conversation. It starts to sound like batting averages for cricket or how many under par someone is at golf. Really crap at maths generally and avoid any calculations unless I have to.

Answered my question though. I was interested when I first read it because I'd never really thought much about it. It appeared to be encouraging people not to get terrified they were going to drown in reasonably heavy situations.
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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by Nick Carroll » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:38 am

Oh man I totally go blank in that circumstance too. Apologies for foisting it on ya.

I should point out that length of time underwater or whatever is no way of judging the severity of a wipeout, easily the most frightening wipeouts I've ever had have taken very little time - just a shitload happening at once.

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steve shearer
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Re: Ask Carroll

Post by steve shearer » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:48 am

A heavy water wipeout or hold down is quite capable of drowning the most capable, confident and prepared surfer.
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