review of Mccoy Astron Zot

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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by Davros » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:48 pm

Somebody call the foam police.

I tells ya the HPS vs. the more vol thing really gets the blood boiling. Theres a bloke I see out and about on large quad castigating anyone on a HPS over 30 whose not ripping...yawn. But then theres the older crew who will stick with HPS because they have always been progressive surfers thats good if they can get at least 50%-70% out of the board they will surf well (Slater you have a lot to answer for mind you).....then theres the individuals who cannot ride a HPS but persist in missing waves, falling off, not turning, you name it........but hey they looked great walking to and from the carpark, I dont get why they think they will get better on these types of boards.

Think McCoys a bit extreme on his views as theres plently of great fishes out there or big guy shortboards etc for those who cant surf HPS, but he does have a simple saying "if your not catching waves your not surfing"...Good review of the Zot on Swaylocks by the way.

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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by Davros » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:29 pm

old grom wrote:G'day fellow alternative surf craft freaks, thought I would share my thoughts on the ZOT - payback for all the great reviews etc that I have feasted on over the last year...

THE NEED
Due to my love of high volume short boards I have been devolping a Mccoy fetish. I have had a couple of Nuggets and an Indo semi gun from the man himself over the last few years - I love riding his boards - esp the Nuggs. My only issues with the Nuggets are: that in a thruster you can only get glasses on fins (sucks for travel and no room to change styles); they are very focussed on strong back foot surfing; and Geoff is a law unto himself, and unlike other shapers he is not really willing to make changes to his shapes - and I really want a NUG quad (he reports he does not want to fcuk the design). This makes it had for anal surf board geeks such as yours truely to experiment with changing the shape/fins/ on their boards.

Thus I was using a 6'10" Nug as my 80% board even though there were issues that I would like to have changed. This Nug was fantastic - esp in bigger surf; handled an decent Indo trip very well; and great for the blend of beachies and points I surf on the Sunny Coast. After a year on this Nug - I contacted Geoff seeking a new board that may be a bit looser, more flexible for my front foot style; and preferable with removable fins.

He replied that he had a new model (aug 2010) the Astron Zot - would be perfect for my needs - but was a single fin only shape - however making this move to a good single would blow me away. He suggested a 6'8" as the Zot is wider than the Nug - and that this would be great on anything up to 4foot (old school).

This got me thinking and thinking...and while I was not sold on the single fin thing - I loved the shape and it seemed well suited to my needs. How I could get one?
Only issue was that I was over my years board allowance (which is very strictly policed - for my own good??) - the only solution was to flog my 6'10""Nug to a mate (with a sell back clause should he want to move it on) - plus I have a 7'2" Nug for big days, so I convinved myself this would make more "Quiver Sense" - and then quickly placed an order.

The Board
Standard Astron Zot - typically strong glass job - 6'8" x 22" X 3 & 1/8th" .

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To give an idea of the outline - its set next to my 6'10'' Nug and an older more standard 19.5" Mccoy shape.


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Despite being wide & thick , throughout - the Mccoys are not ironing board flat like lots of fish style - one of the things I love about the Mccoys is that they have a good nose rocker to make steep drops easy. Anyone who has surfed Mccoys knows how sweet they take a drop.

Image

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The single fin was pretty new to me (last single was an old Hot Stuff when 18 - one I should have kept...). On an earlier picture you will see the original gull wing - I snapped this on a rock on my third surf and have since tried a couple of alternatives - my favourate of which is the wave grinder shown:

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THE RIDE.

The ZOT takes a while to get used to - I have waited for 3 months to review. I do not find it as versitile as the Nuggets - which can be a one board quiver. It goes well on my forehand - paddles in very easily takes the drop well and just sucks on the face - the steeper the better. While it is far from ''high performance'' it turns with great flow and kicks out a lovely spray. It is very moneverable - and I know its funny seeing its so wide - but somtimes it goes like a greased pig and you have to hang on.. but its just the best feeling.

It is my alltime fav. board on small days - you get in early and the thing just makes speed and flys.. the volume, thick round rails and single fin = speed. Like most high volume short boards you dont have to pump to generate speed - rather just glide between section - picking up the power pockets from the wave.

Unlike the NUG - I dont feel as comfortable when the size gets up (its my board of choice for faces up to about 8 ft - a bit over head); and I also struggle on my backhand. I think this backside weakness may be to do with the single fin as my quads and thrusters just seem to have more control as I turn back up the face after a drop - where as on my front side I like this loss of stability as I am more able?

THE FINS

I have tried a couple of fins: the original gull wing went well - but had it too short to be conclusive. Swapped to a standard wide dolphin style fin: the board changed completly - lots of hold - very stiff an great for a big drop - but lost the greased pig feel that I love about the ZOT - and no quick turns or direction changes.

Moved to the Wavegrinder fin: see below blurb that sucked me in:

Combining NASA-proven winglet technology with sailing's America's Cup-proven hydrodynamics principles, the WavegrinderTM surfboard fin (patent 7244157) helps surfers surf faster, for longer, and catch more waves.

Existing surfboard fins use 1950s technology that has evolved little. But the CAD-designed, USA-made Wavegrinder fin uses a proven NACA foil combined with proven NASA winglet technology in a high-aspect-ratio, low-sweepback angle, short-root profile fin that has a small-surface-area shape that nonetheless creates high lift with low drag over a wide range of angles of attack.
.

Blah Blah blah.... but it got my $60 - overall its a very upright winged fin:

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The idea is the wings make it very fast - and as its upright it turns easily. Google it on the web and You Tube - lots of stuff. Overall I really like it and have used it for two months.

I am spun out how the fin change completly changes this board. I may be doing injustice in this review due to using a different fin. But it has place in my quiver as my small to med board and I love it. It may not be as high performance as some boards I have had - but its about as much fun to surf as anything. Its funny Geoff calls this his all-rounder - where as for me thats the Nugs - I am looking forward to seeing what better surfers than me make of it - but for me its a perfect small wave magic carpet. It gets me on early and frigging flies - allowing a great smoothglide as you explore the face.

I plan to buy another gull wing off Mccoy and will update my rewiew after a couple of months on this. Now If I could only get one shaped as a quad....

Overall this board is a keeper - but my search for the perfect high volume short board continues - OG
Re: the backhand if your still having issues moving that fin up a 1/2 inch might feel a little better (king of the obvious - sorry).

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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by old grom » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:08 pm

thanks for the feedback...

I forgot to add that I was 43yrs old 6ft 95kg -average surfer - hence going the 6'8'' ZOT. Now I have surfed it for a while - plus surf @ least 3x weekly so OK fitness; I could easily go down to 6'2'' or even smaller , however when its a bit more solid I like the length to get me in nice and early.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - but I guess knowing what I know after a load of time on the ZOT and on Nuggets - I would like to have say a 6'2'' ish ZOT (small to med wave fun ripper board) and a 6'10 or 7' Nugget as my step up board.

Still happy to make do with the 6'8'' ZOT and 7'2" NUG - means room in the quiver to justify a mini-simons and a 6'10" travel board (next purchase) :D

One thing I dislike about the single that I had not thought about - when comming in you catch the bottom as the fins are so tall - hence breaking my original Gull wing. Now I am on guard - its not an issue - but I miss cruising all the way in on my quads.

I was looking at Mccoys site yesterday - he has some new video posted - very interesting if High volume is your thing I recomend you have a look- he explains his shapes in fair detail. He made one point I liked:

"dont understand surfers changing boards all the time - if you think you have a handle on a new board after 60 waves - you will really know it after 600 waves"

I must be getting to the 600 wave point with the ZOT - but am still discovering things I like about the ZOT - and have still not got my head around the fin options. Had a great surf yesterday PM - solid right hand keg like beachies - steep take off - followed by a very fast 20 - 30 meter wall then close out - the ZOT just excelled.

Now I just have to sort the backside thing - Davros I will try your fin suggestion - I have been a bit slack and just left the fin in one spot without experimenting much - I guess I underestimated the variability that adjustment can cause. Almost wish it was set and fixed by Geoff to take out the options - but pleased its not for travel - and general experimentation (but can see myself on the eternal seach for a perfect fin set up).

Cheers OG

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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by oldman » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:41 pm

Davros wrote:Somebody call the foam police.

I tells ya the HPS vs. the more vol thing really gets the blood boiling. Theres a bloke I see out and about on large quad castigating anyone on a HPS over 30 whose not ripping...yawn.
Anal retentive! I don't care what other people ride, let people make their own decisions, it isn't about foam police, as you say.
Davros wrote: But then theres the older crew who will stick with HPS because they have always been progressive surfers thats good if they can get at least 50%-70% out of the board they will surf well
And here is the thing. How many people are surfing to the absolute nth degree for the shape/volume they are riding?

And how many people are missing waves because they don't have enough foam underneath them?

Plot those two curves and you will find the vast majority of surfers have less foam than is optimal. Even some of the pros aren't riding their boards at the nth degree, so where does that leave everyone else? I've turned boards over as hard as I can as tight as I can and can't find their limits.

I suspect HPS may be a bit of a con. :idea:

Without having a go at the McCoy, it isn't a shape that I'm interested in, and for mine all that foam might not be in the best places, but it probably rides as well as anything else.
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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by jimmy » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:07 pm

The point i made really badly last night is that whilst foam is your friend you don't necessarily need to go down the mass produced road.

I have a friend who is a bit older but surfs well and knows his stuff.

He approached Mr Mcoy to see if he could get a board altered to suit his tastes and was shut down..

I personally am all about talking to a shaper and getting what suits your ability,fitness etc.

And having done that on my last couple of boards I am really happy with my choice in a shaper and I also save a couple of hundred bucks on each board....

If you want foam then all well and good but your local shaper will be able to produce the same results..
Last edited by jimmy on Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by Cpt.Caveman » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:34 pm

The more I'm learning about planing hull theory, lift/drag ratio, mini-simmons theory, etc. the more I'm warming to Geoff's theories. Its still totally wild and expensive for me to give a try myself, but I would love to have a test-run of a 5'6" version.

I mean I'm really starting to appreciate boards that plane on top of the water better, as this gives you that flying feeling that fish and high-volume boards usually try to achieve, and is goddamn fun. If he has managed to reintroduce curves (in many ways) into the board to bring some response and user-friendliness back then that could be super fun.
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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by alakaboo » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:41 am

captain, i've ridden a few of Geoff's shapes, and while I haven't ridden a true hull (at least not as a surfboard, i've ridden some hully windsurfers) I'm not sure they feel the same.
the convex bottom feels like it sucks onto the wave the faster you go. like it becomes part of the wave, rather than skates on top.

got a board from huie that borrow some of the elements of hull theory (but a more recent version), and it's a completely different beast, but they both feel like they don't have a top speed where they become unstable like most other wider higher-volumed boards.

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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by Davros » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:59 am

Oldman...wasnt having a pop just saying your damned if you do (riding vol) damned if you dont (just riding HPS) hence foam police from both sides.Ride to have fun unless your a comp surfer my point.

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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by kookster » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:20 am

Hi, my name's Kookster and I am an addict. :lol:

So far I have owned, in order of purchase...

6'0 PotBelly 2009
6'4 standard Nugg from 1996
6'0 Stumpy 2009 *
6'4 Stumpy 2010
6'6 Formula 1 Loaded Dome circa 1989
5'10 Single circa 1984 - wall hanger, not ridden
6'4 Lazor Zap 2010 *
6'0 Lazor Zap 2010 *
6'5 Narrow Allrounder on order *

All thrusters. The ones marked * are still in the quiver

This isn't a response to anything written here by anyone else, but unless you have spent a month on a McCoy you can't possibly understand what they do and don't give to your surfing. I spent 10 years on under-volumed boards sold to me from the racks of the local shops and progressing very slowly. In the first 12 months of riding McCoy my surfing evolved further than those 10 years.

http://www.mccoysurfboards.com/v1/videos
Those videos sum up a hell of a lot about the theory behind Geoff's designs.

Weight and momentum go well with volume, as do the soft rails, his rocker theories and so on. It's the all-round package that makes these designs work. Put a double concave in one and it'd be shite. The heavy glass jobs aren't just for logetivity, they are part of the way the board works.

Someone commented about about Geoff not wanting to alter a shape for a custom job. The reason he won't do something like that is he knows his product. Change any of the recipe and you end up with something that won't work.

Kinda like when you hear about boards that are a five-fin setup. It's laughable. You cannot have a board that works well as a twin and a quad and a thruster and a single.

As Geoff explains in those vids, the rail shape works with the fins to complete the package.
Last edited by kookster on Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by oldman » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:03 pm

Davros wrote:Oldman...wasnt having a pop just saying your damned if you do (riding vol) damned if you dont (just riding HPS) hence foam police from both sides.Ride to have fun unless your a comp surfer my point.
Nah, took it that way Davros.

I'm the same, happy for people to do what feels best, but you have to get yourself outside that mindset of what everyone else is riding so that you can work that out.
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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by Cpt.Caveman » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:40 pm

kookster wrote:Hi, my name's Kookster and I am an addict. :lol:

So far I have owned, in order of purchase...

6'0 PotBelly 2009
6'4 standard Nugg from 1996
6'0 Stumpy 2009 *
6'4 Stumpy 2010
6'6 Formula 1 Loaded Dome circa 1989
5'10 Single circa 1984 - wall hanger, not ridden
6'4 Lazor Zap 2010 *
6'0 Lazor Zap 2010 *
6'5 Narrow Allrounder on order *

All thrusters. The ones marked * are still in the quiver

This isn't a response to anything written here by anyone else, but unless you have spent a month on a McCoy you can't possibly understand what they do and don't give to your surfing. I spent 10 years on under-volumed boards sold to me from the racks of the local shops and progressing very slowly. In the first 12 months of riding McCoy my surfing evolved further than those 10 years.

http://www.mccoysurfboards.com/v1/videos
Those videos sum up a hell of a lot about the theory behind Geoff's designs.

Weight and momentum go well with volume, as do the soft rails, his rocker theories and so on. It's the all-round package that makes these designs work. Put a double concave in one and it'd be shite. The heavy glass jobs aren't just for logetivity, they are part of the way the board works.

Someone commented about about Geoff not wanting to alter a shape for a custom job. The reason he won't do something like that is he knows his product. Change any of the recipe and you end up with something that won't work.

Kinda like when you hear about boards that are a five-fin setup. It's laughable. You cannot have a board that works well as a twin and a quad and a thruster and a single.

As Geoff explains in those vids, the rail shape works with the fins to complete the package.
Hi Kookster, thanks for chiming in :)

How would you describe the ride of the McCoy style boards that you're had, compared to say a typical high volumed semi-fish HPS?
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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by Cuttlefish » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:22 pm

old grom wrote:thanks for the feedback...

I forgot to add that I was 43yrs old 6ft 95kg -average surfer - hence going the 6'8'' ZOT. Now I have surfed it for a while - plus surf @ least 3x weekly so OK fitness; I could easily go down to 6'2'' or even smaller , however when its a bit more solid I like the length to get me in nice and early.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing - but I guess knowing what I know after a load of time on the ZOT and on Nuggets - I would like to have say a 6'2'' ish ZOT (small to med wave fun ripper board) and a 6'10 or 7' Nugget as my step up board.

Still happy to make do with the 6'8'' ZOT and 7'2" NUG - means room in the quiver to justify a mini-simons and a 6'10" travel board (next purchase) :D

One thing I dislike about the single that I had not thought about - when comming in you catch the bottom as the fins are so tall - hence breaking my original Gull wing. Now I am on guard - its not an issue - but I miss cruising all the way in on my quads.

I was looking at Mccoys site yesterday - he has some new video posted - very interesting if High volume is your thing I recomend you have a look- he explains his shapes in fair detail. He made one point I liked:

"dont understand surfers changing boards all the time - if you think you have a handle on a new board after 60 waves - you will really know it after 600 waves"

I must be getting to the 600 wave point with the ZOT - but am still discovering things I like about the ZOT - and have still not got my head around the fin options. Had a great surf yesterday PM - solid right hand keg like beachies - steep take off - followed by a very fast 20 - 30 meter wall then close out - the ZOT just excelled.

Now I just have to sort the backside thing - Davros I will try your fin suggestion - I have been a bit slack and just left the fin in one spot without experimenting much - I guess I underestimated the variability that adjustment can cause. Almost wish it was set and fixed by Geoff to take out the options - but pleased its not for travel - and general experimentation (but can see myself on the eternal seach for a perfect fin set up).

Cheers OG
If you like the wavegrinder in the zot you'll love the Spitfire fin I reckon.
I've got both and I'd say using the Spitfire will give you a lot more hold when the waves are bigger.
PM me if you want to check out the Spitfire fin I have.
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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by kookster » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:54 am

Cavey - I must say had my experience gone down a different road a lot earlier I may be raving about someone else's designs. It's not that McCoy is the best, it's that he's the best for my surfing. What clicked with me was what Geoff was saying in that Surfing World (?) article a couple of years ago written by Tim Baker. And when I rang him what he told me on the phone was spot on.

In the couple of years before that article in 2009 I had a 6'1 Beach Beat Interceptor shaped by Millsy which was headed in the right direction, and a Cupcake in a 5'10 (Pascoe shape?) - both sort of semi-fish HPS I guess. Despite my limited knoweldge and experience (I only started surfing at 23yo, now 38) I found I'd be bogging rails, pig root under foot, and a whole heap of other unpredictable things. Basically I couldn't work out why these boards would be working magically and then suddenly screw things up. There was no consistency or predictability. Thinking back it was when I started to get better because I was surfing a lot more and my turns got better and these things became an issue but I wasn't yet good enough to overcome them or know when to expect them.

The CupCake was a great little board but didn't have enough rocker for steep stuff and drops were more of a float down the face. The Interceptor was nice and fast but bogged rails heaps.

It seems to me that some time ago the forces of competition and marketing meant somebody started frigging with board design but instead of improving on tried and tested stuff, they changed 20 things at once and not all of it works together.

For the pro surfer sure, but the average surfer needs a lot more volume. Once you add that volume back in the whole ballgame changes. I think a lot of guys shit-can thick boards because they've ridden scaled up versions of small boards and of course they are shite and then the volume/thickness gets blamed.

Every month or so I wander in to the local board shops and see what they have on the shelves. And lo and behold they are all building bigger, fishier boards now. However I still wonder how those individual shapers can dial everything in right when there are sooooo many combinations of shapes, sizes, contours etc.

By Geoff sticking to his tried and true methods he just keeps refining and improving. My surfing has imporved out of sight. And if that's as good as my surfing ever gets because the boards' limitations, I'm happy to cop that too.
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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by buzzy » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:50 am

I'm a long time McCoy supporter. The last board I got though was in 2005, which was a Darren Rogers shaped single fin nugget (6'6" x 20.5" x 2.75"). Still porky, but a little more refined than what Geoff typically does. Since then I've had a couple of years out of the water and my weight ballooned, so I barely rode it. Mind you, been back in the water for coming on 18 months now so the weight is coming off. I'll probably take it for a spin this weekend, but I suspect I need a tad more foam (I see it as a small wave board mainly) and the Astron Zot looks interesting.

I find the whole volume thing laughable, to be honest. Kelly Slater and Dane Reynolds have validated the whole shorter wider thicker concept in shortboards, but most folk think that by doing that they need to ride the same dimensions as KS and Dane ride. They end up getting a board that's still underfoamed, but just undefoamed in different ways. Most people, the vast majority, need to ride boards considerably thicker than KS, a bit longer, and maybe a tad wider. Get over it. It's like they think they need an F1 race car to drive an overnighter to Port Macquarie....doh. We all see it, these guys just learning to surf or intermediates who have no momentum on a wave mainly because they're underfoamed, because they're riding a Merrick or a JS or DHD or Simon or whatever in the same or nearly the same dims as a pro. Forget it.

No stranger to these fora is Grant Miller, who is doing similar things to McCoy but somewhat less idiosyncratic and, I think more most, a slightly higher performing board. The way I see it Miller is using more mainstream/modern design theories and finding ways to apply that to boards with enough foam in them, whereas Geoff is just off on his own path.

So yeah, a 6'6" Astron Zot may be on the cards, with a bit of added width and thickness to my current one it should be perfect for 0-2 foot waves.

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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by Grooter » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:43 pm

was weighing up the McCoy nugget versus the Miller V-Skate several years ago. I liked the look of both of them as I like volume in my boards and softer rails. The last thing I would ever want to ride would be a pro-surfer styled board as I just don't surf enough to get the level of paddle fitness or ability to be able to even surf them.

I went with Grant mainly because he was very good to deal with, listened to what I liked/needed and seemed to know exactly what I wanted. In terms of the board he nailed it. It does everything I need a board to do for me, paddles well, turns well and suits the waves I surf perfectly

Having said all that I really enjoyed the interview with McCoy in Surfing World where he talks about the Astron Zot and I'd be lying if I didn't say I wasn't thinking about getting one for my next board for those smaller days. The one thing I want to know though is how the single fin will work with a shorter board, it's obviously not going to have the "grip" of a thruster but maybe the compromise may be improvements in other areas.....

I've got a single fin 8'6" for some of the breaks I surf and I love the looser feel of it and the way it glides. I've always seen singles as being good for longboards on breaks that suit them but would I be right/wrong in suggesting a single fin for smaller stuff may only suit a narrower spectrum of waves and not be more of an all-rounder which those of us with fund limitations (wife, kids etc) are more inclined to want?
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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by buzzy » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:14 pm

I grew up on surfing single fins originally, so I'm not sure I'm so good at explaining any differences. Having said that, for me the differences are;

* there is less spring (or thrust) out of turns on a single fin than a thruster. Having said that, the McCoy single fins seem to deliver more drive than the fins I remember from the late 70's, early 80's.
* McCoy's rounded edges seem to stick to the wave face just fine.
* McCoy's really seem to prefer being in the pocket. I think that's to do with the rolled dome slowing the board down when it's out of the power source. That means the board is less responsive in fatter waves. However, that's offset by the extra planing area and volume.
* A single fin paddles a lot quicker than a thruster, meaning you get into small waves with more momentum.

I reckon they surf the same waves as the same board in a thruster setup. Just a slightly different feel. But I reckon McCoys work best in small to medium surf with a good steep pocket to work with.

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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by Davros » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:21 pm

From Kookster "I think a lot of guys shit-can thick boards because they've ridden scaled up versions of small boards and of course they are shite and then the volume/thickness gets blamed."

Reckon your on to something there. Stick the smaller workable model in the machine make it a "big boys" shortboard with a HPS Brand name on it and should work the same for different weight etc....but doesnt. Ego saved - surfing experience rubbish.

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Cpt.Caveman
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Re: review of Mccoy Astron Zot

Post by Cpt.Caveman » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:06 pm

^^^ That was so good Davros I had to use it in my signature.

There is nothing better than finding a good shaper who will listen to what you need (and want), not just what you think you need, and then to open you mind to something different that will help you learn about surfboards and your own surfing. The result can be huge leaps in stoke and surfing ability, and if it doesn't hit the spot 100% you know the next board will be big steps towards being "The One".

I reckon Geoff has a lot to offer, but I'm slightly put off by his way of saying "this is my flavor, take it or leave it..."
Davros wrote:Ego saved - surfing experience rubbish.

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