7S Superfish Feedback

[Morgan The Moon]

.... if the prices to produce a board in Thailand is sooo much cheaper, why are they comparable ( or even dearer sometimes ) in price ??? I dont care what price they are but seems to be bit weird to me.....

Cos people associate cost with quality of product - and people buy that shite....Shapers are artisans and are severely underpaid for what they produce. I'll happily drop 800 a year on a well made board from an established shaper (as long as Mrs Morgan gives it the nod) - f@rk, it's the price of a years gym membership, what 80 packs of ciggies (??), 8 big nights on the piss....more for a longboard.

[pridmore]

well put, spot on MTM....

[Jimi]

Were they ever that much cheaper here Mark? I've got no idea as I'm not interested in a 7S, but I have been looking through a few board shops in Sydney of recent months and have been left agog ( ) at the prices being sought in the shops. Base prices for new boards seem to be at the upper end of the custom price range. I'm back to thinking I'll never buy a shop board again.
.

yeah board prices in the shops are a joke. 600 - 800 for a new shortboards. Too much. Ive got a few cheap but near new second hand boards from shops but not new. Way better to fork out about 550 to a good aussie shaper for a custom.

[OddaP]

dunno if I wrote something to take offence to ??? ( think it was empowered who got toey and probably with reason considering his personal experiences with Asian boards IMO ) anyway, seems like you were just looking for a cheap groveller, and they prob do that ok...I was always say ride whatever you want...but I am a big fan of keeping the dollars going to Aussie shapers....
Why are boards so dear over there ( WA ), is it coz the blanks and resins are dearer due to shipping costs from the east coast....I have sent a few over there and guys didnt mind paying 160 for freight...

Nah Mark not at all, was just saying that I replied to Empowered coz I think I got the wrong end of the stick, Id be looking to blame the surf shops stocking said products to the exclusion of all else rather than a punter looking for a (possible) bargain for something he may ride infrequently...anyway its all water off a ducks bat.

To WA, this is 2nd hand, but apparently its to do with the blanks and resins etc and supply of said products to a small market and I think the fact that everything is more expensive (rent, wages etc), local guys do of course do produce cheaper than an east coast import but not to the degree that you might suspect.

The prices shops (and people) ask for rank 2nd hand boards over here is pretty amazing

[eMpowered]

Was'nt having a go at you directly OddaP. but do still get a bit frustrated with anyone even considering buying a Chinese/Thai board.

For the record, When I got out we were selling boards wholesale to shops for $450 to $500, The Chinese/Thai guy's came in and sold hundreds of boards for as low as $157 at one stage (mostly around $200).

Alot of people who buy boards from shops (in Sydney anyway) are beginners who would'nt have much of an idea about boards. The chinese stuff sold like hotcakes (even with a big margin on them).

M

[OddaP]

All good eMpower

I can understand its impossible to match those sort of prices.

For better or for worse though, for a lot of people, price is a determinant in a purchase decision, although I think they might not be so keen to buy if they realised the large difference in margins you've just outlined.

[ric_vidal]

Cos people associate cost with quality of product - and people buy that shite....Shapers are artisans and are severely underpaid for what they produce. I'll happily drop 800 a year on a well made board from an established shaper...

You’ll have to define an established shaper, MTM. Unfortunately from what I am seeing established ‘brands’ can be pretty shoddy for all manner of reasons, primarily because they are ‘production’ boards and made at piece rates. Just because it might be someone of note whose file it is for the machine means little. Different operators different results, yeah but it’s a machine it must be accurate. The names behind the brands invariably aren’t shaping it or finishing or looking you in the eye when they hand over the product.

Brand power! Bring back Sally.

[Trev]

Just reading some of the above brings back memories of my tyre industry experience with Chinese/ Korean and SE Asian products.
The end result is that, from about 10 new tyre plants in this country about 25 years ago, we now have just one small operation by Bridgestone and it's anyone's guess how much longer they'll perservere.
Some 15 years ago, the labour content to produce a tyre in Australia was around $25 -$26.
In China it was about $4 - $5.
Doesn't take a maths genius to work out those numbers.
The real danger, as it is with boards but a little more deadly is that the Asian factories make product for various world markets. They all apparently manufacture a cheaper product for use in Asia/India but product made for Australia, the US and Europe is made to the same strict standards as used in the parent companies' factories in the target country.
However it is possible to go onto the docks in Singapore and buy container loads of these "cheaper but still brand name" products and import them to Australia and sell them to the public. There is no government regulation covering quality of the product. As long as the tyre carries the speed rating and load index, it's all good.
So, bottom line: a tyre made for use on a little old car capable of maybe 50 or 60 mph tops on SE Asian roads where you probably can't get above 30 can be fitted to an XR6 and potentially set off on the high speed run from Darwin to the Alice. In summer!

There are plenty of good tyres coming out of Asia these days but boy you need to be careful.

[Grooter]

Was'nt having a go at you directly OddaP. but do still get a bit frustrated with anyone even considering buying a Chinese/Thai board.

For the record, When I got out we were selling boards wholesale to shops for $450 to $500, The Chinese/Thai guy's came in and sold hundreds of boards for as low as $157 at one stage (mostly around $200).

Alot of people who buy boards from shops (in Sydney anyway) are beginners who would'nt have much of an idea about boards. The chinese stuff sold like hotcakes (even with a big margin on them).

M

That's really the answer right there. I bought an NSP when I was getting back into surfing years ago because the price was slightly cheaper than other fibreglass boards and the shape was very beginner friendly. All up it wasn't a bad board but it was limited in its ability and hence once I knew more about what I wanted out of a board I went to a shaper.

To an entry level surfer you just want to be able to stand up, NSP's and the like do this very, very easily. Rode a mates one a few months ago, didn't paddle any better than my custom, was very easy to get up on and that is where the fun pretty much ended because once I tried to do a decent turn the rails dug in and I went A over T. In short very low performance but for the average Australian summer holiday crowd they fit the bill perfectly. And they are strong too, my old one blew off the roof racks doing 100km/h down a freeway. Cracked the spoiler and dented the roof of the car, board didn't have a scratch.

I think there is a general uneasiness in consumers that are buying an expensive product for the first time. They would be more inclined to to buy a board that looks the goods in the shop as opposed to trying to find a shaper and then try and say what they want. Secondly they probably don't want a second hand pressure dented board either - I know I didn't, because you don't really know what you are doing so you are less inclined to take a punt on a pre-loved board as opposed to an NSP that markets very well to entry level surfers.

Dunno about NSW but I actually found it hard to find a shaper in Victoria - none of them were listed in the yellowpages for a start so I had to do a lot of trawling on line to find someone one. There is a hint for the shapers here, advertise smarter (if you don't already) and have something like "entry level boards our specialty" etc....

I think even Trigger Brothers on the Mornington Peninsula sell more NSP's and pop-outs than anything else now, pretty sure their shaping bay at Pt Leo does ding repairs more than anything else these days. Like most surf stores their business is now modelled around the "image" as opposed to the "act" of surfing and that is pretty much evident everywhere now.

The other problem that would have to put people off is surf "meccas" that put ridiculous prices on second-hand boards. if you travel to Torquay the prices of second hand, pressure dented boards in the shops there are ridiculous. Last time I was there (2 years ago) they had some crappy little 6'3" boards going for $600 No wonder people go elsewhere for the cheaper pop-outs.

[oldman]

The names behind the brands invariably aren’t shaping it or finishing or looking you in the eye when they hand over the product.

Brand power! Bring back Sally.

Absolutely. I wouldn't want a custom from a name shaper unless I was sure that the name was shaping it, and from what I hear that is unlikely.

I'd like to meet or at least talk to the shaper whose hands are gonna do the work. Then it's about pride in workmanship and looking him in the eye.

Brand power Sally, eh. I'd tap it.

The other problem that would have to put people off is surf "meccas" that put ridiculous prices on second-hand boards. if you travel to Torquay the prices of second hand, pressure dented boards in the shops there are ridiculous

Have to agree hatchman.
Went on a trip up to goldy and Byron in April and checked out the prices. Second hand boards selling for approximately double what I would have been happy to pay. Couldn't work out how they were getting away with it really. $50 or $100 more and you could get your own custom. Made no sense to me.

[Morgan The Moon]

Cos people associate cost with quality of product - and people buy that shite....Shapers are artisans and are severely underpaid for what they produce. I'll happily drop 800 a year on a well made board from an established shaper...

You’ll have to define an established shaper, MTM. Unfortunately from what I am seeing established ‘brands’ can be pretty shoddy for all manner of reasons, primarily because they are ‘production’ boards and made at piece rates. Just because it might be someone of note whose file it is for the machine means little. Different operators different results, yeah but it’s a machine it must be accurate. The names behind the brands invariably aren’t shaping it or finishing or looking you in the eye when they hand over the product.

Brand power! Bring back Sally.

Well, my last purchase was a Van Straalen, before that a McCoy. I'm pretty sure Van Straalens are all hand shaped, not sure about McCoy, but when I spoke with him he was a one man band.

I would expect to pay a bit less for say a Simon Anderson, cos of the ghost shaping thing, but RV I didn't realise that a different operator could screw up a machine shape

I'd expect to pay less again for an up and coming shaper - say a Haydn Lewis.

What do you reckon guys, am I on my own, or is that the general sentiment out there in reader land???

[steve shearer]

I agree with that but I'm not sure that's how the market prices things.

More like how flavour of the month the shaper is or how many pro's he has riding the boards.

[pridmore]

what if you have no pros but a few good surfers from RS are ripping on your shapes ?
My customs start at $499, does that mean I'm selling them for a great price to make MORE sales and slowly build a rep for doing good boards or would people be MORE likely to buy them if I put the price up another $150 coz they would be of the belief that it must be better if it costs more ???

actually I dont give a f**k, coz my boards are good and if you wanna pay more, go for it, or if you wanna good stick and good service for a good price.....

[sean--]

what if you have no pros but a few good surfers from RS are ripping on your shapes ?
My customs start at $499, does that mean I'm selling them for a great price to make MORE sales and slowly build a rep for doing good boards or would people be MORE likely to buy them if I put the price up another $150 coz they would be of the belief that it must be better if it costs more ???

actually I dont give a f**k, coz my boards are good and if you wanna pay more, go for it, or if you wanna good stick and good service for a good price.....

Who needs pros when your turning out a good product at a good price? You could tack on an extra $100 and if surfers want them the orders will keep going. At the other end is Grant Miller who also has no team riders but who handshapes great boards with good service but at a higher price. I'm sure he gets plenty of orders. The market is big enough for the plastic boards and local product alike.
The imports are going to continue but most serious surfers will always go for the custom or local board.

[pridmore]

position iimportant too as it effects prices, Sydney boards seem to be around $650- $750 from what I hear, but people around here dont have that much cash usually...but still, most ofmy boards seem to be heading to the Goldy, Sunny Coasts and alot to Sydney also....guess they can get a custom sled, delivery, tail pad, leggy, wax, carton of beer and still have change .....

[ric_vidal]

Grant Miller who also has no team riders but who handshapes great boards with good service...

Not too sure about the ‘hand’ bit anymore, Sean. Grant is apparently clever in more ways than one and has carved out a good point of difference including excellent customer service. Have had it said to me he is more concerned with the quality of others work than apparently his own. :? There be that appearance thing again.

MorganTM, Geoff has had another guy working with him for years (forgotten his name) and yes they are the real deal. DVS you would think the same. Whilst they are both famous and highly regarded they are not what I was really suggesting as ‘brands’.

Not against machines, just the smoke and mirrors of what really goes on behind the scenes.

Don’t think Chinese production is too much of a threat, numbers couldn’t be sustained from what I heard. Cobra (Thailand) and the variety of product that comes from them by way of Surftech, GSI, et al, has warehouses full already. They have eroded probably an area of the market, but they may have also lifted consumers’ expectations.

[Morgan The Moon]

what if you have no pros but a few good surfers from RS are ripping on your shapes ?
My customs start at $499, does that mean I'm selling them for a great price to make MORE sales and slowly build a rep for doing good boards or would people be MORE likely to buy them if I put the price up another $150 coz they would be of the belief that it must be better if it costs more ???

actually I dont give a f**k, coz my boards are good and if you wanna pay more, go for it, or if you wanna good stick and good service for a good price.....

Mate, it's all marketing....my comment about higher price suggesting higher quality is firmly aimed at someone who doesn't know what they're buying, and is cashed up.

Course, the surftechs have also created the myth of a longer lasting board which adds to their attraction for someone entering the market for the first time.

It's just why I believe the prices from Thai / Chinese imports (surftech, etc) are aimed at the same price, if not more expensive as customs.

I know the whole surftech thing is pretty contentious and that people do buy them with an informed decision and love them, but there's a lot of poo out there too.

I'd say you're approach is equally as valid - one of my mates was looking at your site recently when looking at a quad. He'd heard about the FatBat and I could point him to the Realsurf forums for some good honest feedback on the boards you'd made.

[Morgan The Moon]

MorganTM, Geoff has had another guy working with him for years (forgotten his name) and yes they are the real deal. DVS you would think the same. Whilst they are both famous and highly regarded they are not what I was really suggesting as ‘brands’.

Not against machines, just the smoke and mirrors of what really goes on behind the scenes.

Yeah, Darren Rodgers was the fella. He's gone. Not sure where to, and when I spoke to McCoy he was adamant he wasn't going to take someone else under his wing. Might've changed his mind since then tho'