What's wrong with my fish?

[cousteau]

^^^ it's a proper old school fish twinny, what it lacks in length it more than makes up for in girth.
ahem

[brendo]

so who shaped it? please tell us

[cousteau]

I was reffering to an earlier post ... haven't worked out quoting, sorry

[pridmore]

I'm 170 cm 64 Kg (5.6 ft and 141 lbs)
I got a fish shaped for me a few months ago by a very reputable Sydney shaper.
It's
5'11" x 20&3/4" x 2&1/2
It's a modern style fish which surfs like a standard shorty.

It's a great paddler but I was surprised that I had trouble picking up speed on it. I thought it was just me but after 6 weeks of trying to get it to go fast, I've given up.

It goes ok when the waves are steep or hollow but that's what my regular shorty is for. I had this board shaped for gutless fat, weak waves. I have ridden other fish (even made in Thailand ones) that just accelerated at the slightest hint of a wave.

I find that just going straight on take off, on a good fast, shoulder high wave, feels slow. I know that with a fish you sometimes need to work it to gain speed and once it gets going it's fine. The problem with this board however, is that pumping doesn't do anything for it. I've never had a board not respond to pumping before, I can't explain it.

What shocked me the most was after 6 weeks of only surfing this board I jumped onto my standard shorty:
6'0 x 18&1/2" x 2&5/16"
I took off on a tiny little weak wave, and went off like a rocket, I pumped for speed and the board just took off. If this board only paddled better in the weak stuff I wouldn't be looking for a fish. I'd forgotten how amazing my 6'0 was.

So what the hell could be wrong with this fish? All I know is that I asked for a light one. My previous fish just felt too heavy and stiff. So apparently he only put 1 layer of 4 oz on the deck's nose and 2 layers where my feet would be. I'm wondering if it's too wide, light and buoyant and thus not getting down the wave with speed?

I'm just interested what you guys have to say before I give my feedback to the shaper.

talk to the shaper and he should work with you to try to give you want you need, if he isnt very accomadating try another shaper, dont be disheartened with custom boards, they are the only way to go... You will learn a fair bit about board thru this process, get involved and soak it up for next time...
I shape a fair few fish and it sounds like you should go shorter, 4" less than tandard shortboard and 2-2 1/2 " wider is a good guide, sounds like it may have too much nose rocker so check out some other fish and go from there or call me???????

[Natho]

pridmore sorry but B sh*t custom boards are the only way to go. In fact I think for the average surfer who only gets one or two boards here and there the need for a custom board is very overated. The topic of this post should be proof of that.

Unless a person is able to form a good relationship with a shaper, and is prepared to go through several 'experimental boards' before getting the right one, then buying a board off the rack makes perfect sense. The quality off the rack is often just as good and the surfer can see exactly what they are getting.

So again sorry mate but that comment is a load of Bsh*t.

Sure the custom experience is great for those that can afford the time and money to get the right board. For the average punter however there is no need to have to go a custom.

[Natho]

^^^^ I do however understand that your comments may be a bit bias considering you shape some boards yourself. Hey Im the first to support local shapers, however I think one needs to clear up fact from fiction.

It just appears that so many average surfers are confused when it comes to boards, fins, brands, custom/ not custom etc. A lot of the marketing bsh*t that these people are subjected to doesn't help either.

[Natho]

^^^^ I do however understand that your comments may be a bit bias considering you shape some boards yourself. Hey Im the first to support local shapers, however I think one needs to clear up fact from fiction.

It just appears that so many average surfers are confused when it comes to boards, fins, brands, custom/ not custom etc. A lot of the marketing bsh*t that these people are subjected to doesn't help either.

[pridmore]

pridmore sorry but B sh*t custom boards are the only way to go. In fact I think for the average surfer who only gets one or two boards here and there the need for a custom board is very overated. The topic of this post should be proof of that.

Unless a person is able to form a good relationship with a shaper, and is prepared to go through several 'experimental boards' before getting the right one, then buying a board off the rack makes perfect sense. The quality off the rack is often just as good and the surfer can see exactly what they are getting.

So again sorry mate but that comment is a load of Bsh*t.

Sure the custom experience is great for those that can afford the time and money to get the right board. For the average punter however there is no need to have to go a custom.

thats your opinion but I really value and cherish my time in the waves so I want boards that I can get the most enjoyment out of. I Like boards that I can do what i want to do on and I can also personalise with colours and stuff. It is an expression of myself, surfable art and at the cost we pay, why shouldn't we get exactly what we want. But if you like em off the rack then good for you. Maybe you have never had a good shaper who is willing to work with you to get that special board, that is a satisfying feeling for both shaper and surfer. Mate, if thats BULLSHIT as you put it then well, we definitely will have to disagree on that . Some stockies could suit some people perfectly but if you are after something totaly suited to your needs, especially if you want something slightly different to the mainstream, how you gunna get it ????

[AndyTheMan]

pridmore sorry but B sh*t custom boards are the only way to go. In fact I think for the average surfer who only gets one or two boards here and there the need for a custom board is very overated. The topic of this post should be proof of that.

Unless a person is able to form a good relationship with a shaper, and is prepared to go through several 'experimental boards' before getting the right one, then buying a board off the rack makes perfect sense. The quality off the rack is often just as good and the surfer can see exactly what they are getting.

So again sorry mate but that comment is a load of Bsh*t.

Sure the custom experience is great for those that can afford the time and money to get the right board. For the average punter however there is no need to have to go a custom.

thats your opinion but I really value and cherish my time in the waves so I want boards that I can get the most enjoyment out of. I Like boards that I can do what i want to do on and I can also personalise with colours and stuff. It is an expression of myself, surfable art and at the cost we pay, why shouldn't we get exactly what we want. But if you like em off the rack then good for you. Maybe you have never had a good shaper who is willing to work with you to get that special board, that is a satisfying feeling for both shaper and surfer. Mate, if thats BULLSHIT as you put it then well, we definitely will have to disagree on that . Some stockies could suit some people perfectly but if you are after something totaly suited to your needs, especially if you want something slightly different to the mainstream, how you gunna get it ????

Whoa up there guys.....

Chillax a bit

I reckong that its horses for courses...

For me, an off the rack board is the way to go - I can look at lots, decide what I like, and use forums such as this to get people's advice on makers, styles etc.

I haven't surfed for a long while so off the rack is great for me.

BUT....

I have mates who are keen surfers, know their stuff and know exactly what they want in a board, they swaer by the local makers to get them what they want....

Horses for courses.....

One thing we do agree on though.....as per my other post today...

WORK SUX

Now....continue the discussion ..

[smw1]

My boards are a mix of custom and off-the-rack.

Clearly both forms of supply have their own advantages and disadvantages.

Frankly, for your average joe surfer (and I include myself in that category), the quality of off-the-rack boards using tried and tested designs from big name shapers will in many cases more than suffice and provide fantastic value for money.

Certainly more so than a mediocre shape from a guy down the road who's just learning his trade.

There's a reason the likes of Webber, Anderson, Handley, JS, Merrick charge top dollar for their products - it's because they tend to be consistently good performers over many years. Why shouldn't your average bloke tap into that expertise and success off the rack, and reduce the risk of buying a dog?

On the other hand, I also like the fact I can go and talk to a shaper and be educated about how a board is likely to perform for me, and how he can tweak it to make it work for me. And I can order a pretty colour if I want it.

Life's rich tapestry, surely?

SMW1

[tiger]

What bottom contour does it have? Usually faux fish style boards have plenty of inherent speed just from having a flatter and wider planing area. Very slight concaves or even flat bottoms seem to marry in best with these kind of boards. He hasn't put, dare I say, V in it? I also find these boards not as quick off the mark as std rockered/concaved hi performance board. But it should only take 1 pump to be off and flying. As others have said, it's most likely poorly placed entry rocker. But check the contour, V will drag, and even too deep a concave on a wide flat board can feel sticky.

[ric_vidal]

Unless a person is able to form a good relationship with a shaper, and is prepared to go through several 'experimental boards' before getting the right one, then buying a board off the rack makes perfect sense. The quality off the rack is often just as good and the surfer can see exactly what they are getting..

Wouldn’t you think Natho, if you go off the rack you are still taking a punt? Sure you can look at it, touch it smell it, lick it good and proper but what do you really know until the tank test. Different thing with ‘models’, but let’s not go there for the mo’.

Bit like what is ‘average’? My surfing experience is rather lengthy but my ability well another story. I’ve chopped around on all sorts of boards, custom and otherwise. Wasn’t ’til I started shaping that I realised just how many different things do work. Hard to second guess how a person wants to ride and most people can’t communicate to save themself.

Shaper I know will just say bring it back if you aren’t happy with it, I do the same at my modest level but God help them if they bring it back.

Generalisation, but most surfers are bloody sheep stick with what they know and couldn’t possibly branch outside the ‘norm’, unless someone else has and they seem to be ‘goin’ good’, nothing wrong with that per se, but where is the involvement? Why not take your board to a shaper or a shop with someone who can help, like Shortarse (Longbum) @ Zinc and get them to evaluate the benefits or drawbacks of the current board.

Dare say everyone thinks they know about certain design aspects of their ride, but my experience suggests they know f-all other than what they just rode to the beach but they don’t know what did what. Not suggesting I do, but I think most shapers, even at my level, become more observant of what’s going on... So they go to a shop and look for phase whatever of their journey... which might a be a little jink one way or t’other.

Everyone wants a fast, light, strong and manoeuvrable board it’s just that it comes in an infinite amount of flavours. Bit like the thrusters/quads debate at the moment.

Let’s face it, we all should have 7 boards each.

[Natho]

Yep I agree. Its horses for courses. That's why you can'y say that custom is the only way to go. Nothing personal pridmore. That's the great thing about these forums. We can all have a healthy debate and we don't all have to agree.

I myself get custom boards. That said I have relationships with several shapers that in some cases span many many years. I have ordered many many boards from these shapers and I am at a point now where most of the time I am getting the right board for me. Again this has taken many years, many boards and plenty of money along the way.Plenty of trial an error with boards that were not right. I also differ from the average punter in that I go through many many boards each year, and have at least 10 - 15 boards at any one time. So sure the bespoke route suits me as it does many others.

Not everyone is in the same position as me. There are those who are perfectly suited to an off the rack board and there is absolutely nothing wrong with an off the rack board for those who choose.

[ric_vidal]

Webber, Anderson, Handley, JS, Merrick

Where’s Nickerless Carroll, I have an idea for him.

Open letter to Mr Carroll,

When you and your other cohorts do the ASL board review, testicle or whatever it is, why not throw in a blind test, or a double-blind test and keep Yanks happy, ’cept he’s on a sponge so maybe need another category too.

Boards from all shaper to have their branding covered and undisclosed until the END of proceedings. Now to do this properly will need to come a with a one board principle. i.e. a specific board based on a brief as the ‘testes’ are all different, no?

So what are you waiting for? Put this branding exercise debate to bed once and for all.

They can do this as well as whatever new fangled model they are puttin’ up.

[Natho]

Great idea Ric : .

Kinda like doing a blind wine tasting where you cover the bottles with a brown paper bag. Funny how Grange or Petrus dont taste as good when they have a brown paper bag over em.

Yeh I just wonder if the average punter would like his Webber, Merrick, JS etc as much if it was a blank board without a logo????.

Hmm that's going to be a hard one for Nick and the ASL team when you consider advertising revenue plays such a huge role in the board tests. I guess without advertising the magazine fails to exist.

[ric_vidal]

Hmm that's going to be a hard one for Nick and the ASL team when you consider advertising revenue plays such a huge role in the board tests. I guess without advertising the magazine fails to exist.

I don’t know if revenue generating is literally Nick’s concern he can clarify that dynamic if he chooses, ASL or any publication has to make dough, that is business. People may buy the publication just because of the test so it might be considered double dipping a bit, but it has it’s own set of associated costs so why not? No one is being forced.

As I said, they can still do the other component as well and let shapers ‘contribute’ a board/money for review for their full page paid ad in return or whatever the current deal is..

I just think it would add an element and may generate some more and/or different interest. Certain ‘tech’ boards would be a dead giveaway now so it has to be thought out, or literally have a blind test

They may have to have a few test riders that are of similar stature, even some mug punters.

[pridmore]

Yep I agree. Its horses for courses. That's why you can'y say that custom is the only way to go. Nothing personal pridmore. That's the great thing about these forums. We can all have a healthy debate and we don't all have to agree.

I myself get custom boards. That said I have relationships with several shapers that in some cases span many many years. I have ordered many many boards from these shapers and I am at a point now where most of the time I am getting the right board for me. Again this has taken many years, many boards and plenty of money along the way.Plenty of trial an error with boards that were not right. I also differ from the average punter in that I go through many many boards each year, and have at least 10 - 15 boards at any one time. So sure the bespoke route suits me as it does many others.

I may have said only way to go but I meant the best option for myself. I rarely see a board on the rack that suits my specific needs. We are all in agreeance that its horses for corses, I just really enjoy the involvement and the whole process and boards mean a lot less when they come off the rack for me....

Not everyone is in the same position as me. There are those who are perfectly suited to an off the rack board and there is absolutely nothing wrong with an off the rack board for those who choose.

[Nick Carroll]

Open letter to Mr Carroll,

When you and your other cohorts do the ASL board review, testicle or whatever it is, why not throw in a blind test, or a double-blind test and keep Yanks happy, ’cept he’s on a sponge so maybe need another category too.

Boards from all shaper to have their branding covered and undisclosed until the END of proceedings. Now to do this properly will need to come a with a one board principle. i.e. a specific board based on a brief as the ‘testes’ are all different, no?

So what are you waiting for? Put this branding exercise debate to bed once and for all.

They can do this as well as whatever new fangled model they are puttin’ up.

Sorry buddy, been through this one (I mean! don't ya reckon the same idea might've occurred to me over the past 20 years or so ).

Blind tests using single boards won't produce an accurate enough result to be worth the candle. Indeed -- any attempt to directly compare surfboard to surfboard on anything but an individual surfer-to-surfer basis is kinda meaningless.

To understand why, you've just gotta look at a) the numerous differences between individual surfers and b) the numerous, though minor, differences between even the most carefully prepared surfboards.

Top pro surfers select their boards like this: they have their shaper make six or eight to the same measurements, then they go out and surf all six or eight. They might end up picking one, maybe two, from the six or eight (sometimes they reject the lot).

They don't do this out of superstition -- they can pick differences, clear ones, even between boards made using the exact same computer cutter off their super-designer's program, finished, glassed and sanded in the same batch by the same crew.

Every top shaper knows this process and also knows he can't guarantee any single board will be 100% of what he and his crew can produce. 95% maybe, but not 100%. Thus there isn't a shaper I've talked to about a blind test who's been in favour of the idea.

To get somewhere in a blind test, you'd need to replicate this process: six or eight boards from each shaper, with the tester discarding all but the absolute 100% version.

BUT! Then you'd run into the other issue: that of the differences between surfers themselves. Because every surfer is physically different to the next and has a different surfing history, one surfer's judgement of a surfboard is invariably a little bit different to the next.

If the abovementioned blind test were to be at all accurate, it'd have to be performed by one surfer only. That surfer would be in essence, the "control" element in the experiment. But since he/she would have quite specific individual tastes in surfboards, his or her judgements on said boards would only be relevant to surfers whose physical type and history aligned with his/hers.

I mean you guys are always on about this with your custom board obsession -- it's pretty obvious that a 6'1" JS tuned to Bruce Irons wouldn't work too well for, say, rickity. Physical type, tastes, background, experience, all entirely different.

This is why in the ASL Board Test we don't try to compare boards with each other, and why we concentrate instead on examining each board on its own merits -- while putting it under the feet of a wide range of differing physical types. Partly to see if we can find some sort of consensus on its performance -- partly also to see if it'll work better for some physical types and styles than others.

There's a last reason why blind testing is a bit of an irrelevance in Board Test terms. Surfboards aren't encountered by any of us as neutral objects; we all react to them emotionally as well as practically. Walk into a surf shop -- order a custom board with a spray job -- however you get hold of one, your experience of the board is coloured from the very outset by your reading of the label and your reaction to its overall appearance. This is a significant part of the process of taking on and riding a surfboard, and any test that tried to pretend it didn't matter would be a bit of a failure IMO.

I dont think the wine analogy is apt: surfboards are intensely practical things, and once you're actually on a wave and riding, there's nowhere to hide. Famous shaper or not. On ASL Board Tests I've always found the surfers were most keen to ride the board that felt the best under their arm -- and the famous labels weren't alway the favourites.