Webber vs Hayden Shapes

Tribal discussion for shortboarders

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smw1
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Post by smw1 » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:00 am

ric_vidal wrote: Here we go again S&M, you are meant to agree with me, haven’t you learnt anything from our previous diatribe :lol:
I let you win all our arguments. 8)

For the record, I saw some Webber Afterburners from Cobra over the weekend. They have Greg's "GW" signature reproduced on the base and a nice glossy coat. And a kind of green fade graphic as well.

They looked pretty well finished actually. $725 off the rack.....

Which is still about 200 bucks cheaper than the same model in S-Core. The shope was raving on to me about S-Cores by the way. I'd still like to try one but haven't got round to getting hold of a demo yet.

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Post by ric_vidal » Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:44 am

smw1 wrote:I let you win all our arguments. 8)
Thank you S&M I knew there was a good person behind all those nasty hurtful comments you made :D
smw1 wrote:They looked pretty well finished actually. $725 off the rack.....
They would want to for the price. Fongy reckons he can make a board for around $220, so can I, and these guys are using Thai labour and poping the basic board out of a mould and I heard yesterday they produced something in the order of 50,000 boards in one year and that was a few years ago.
smw1 wrote:Which is still about 200 bucks cheaper than the same model in S-Core. The shope was raving on to me about S-Cores by the way. I'd still like to try one but haven't got round to getting hold of a demo yet. :D
Is paying nigh on $1000 for board a “if it costs this much is must be good thing”? What do you want in a board? (Might be a topic for new poll/thread)

It appears S&M I have no answers, only questions. What seriously bothers me though, across the board :lol:, and even more so as a parent is, what are we as a nation going to end up doing if all we do is consume goods made with cheap labour in Asian countries?

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Post by munch » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:16 am

ric_vidal wrote:Fongy reckons he can make a board for around $220, so can I, and these guys are using Thai labour and poping the basic board out of a mould and I heard yesterday
Think ya taking that a bit out of context lic :arrow: it was for materials, no labour, no cnc'ing, no transportation, no tax .... I'm not for it, I'd rather make me own boards ( but no room :( ) ..... but you have open with arguments ;)

on that how much do board importers have to pay in tax if any :?: bro :?:

and if you are going to pay extra for a board do you really want that to be tax and transportation :x :arrow: I wouldn't
If it's well engineered it's beautiful .

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Post by ric_vidal » Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:03 pm

munch wrote:Think ya taking that a bit out of context lic :arrow: it was for materials, no labour, no cnc'ing, no transportation, no tax .... I'm not for it, I'd rather make me own boards ( but no room :( ) ..... but you have open with arguments ;)
I know LAMBinator I am taking liberties, just trying to demonstrate a point. No CNC on a Tuflite to my limited knowledge, it’s a moulded EPS blank based on the ‘designer’s’ master.

The margins on the Tuflites ain’t that mu(n)ch actually, I’ve seen the wholesale and rec. retail for the Tuflites. Too many fingers in the pot - middle-man, royalties, marketing & advertising, import duty, blah, blah.

Still comes down to what do you want so go and take my poll...

Liked it better when you were on your honeymoon Munchausen :D

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Post by bro » Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:31 pm

Munch not sure on boards we use 18% duty on clothing for calculating landed costs if that helps.

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Post by smw1 » Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:35 pm

ric_vidal wrote: It appears S&M I have no answers, only questions. What seriously bothers me though, across the board :lol:, and even more so as a parent is, what are we as a nation going to end up doing if all we do is consume goods made with cheap labour in Asian countries?
I wasn't advocating the Cobra Webbers, just saying that from the outside, the quality looked decent (and they were very nice and shiny which as anyone knows is what really counts). And I really can't see myself spending 1000 bucks on an S-Core - that's almost 2 polyester boards! I'd like to try one out though.

As to the manufacturing issue, who knows how it will bottom out. But to state the blindingly obvious, unless there is some major unforseen shift in globably economic conditions, I think it is a safe bet that the trend for consumer goods increasingly being manufactured in offshore locations - particularly developing Asian countries - is only going to increase.

Does anyone feel like we might have hijacked this thread? :shock:

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Post by oldman » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:27 pm

I mean, the backyard shapers are struggling, and eveytime someone buys an Asian popout or whatever, its is hitting the custom backyardie right where it hurts. Still whatever floats your boat.

I understand that people (big business) want to make profits, but at what cost to the small guys?

Maybe in the end there will be no more custom board makers?
Welcome to the world 'ado'. It's called capitalism. The big guys are out to destroy the little guys, that is their job (as they see it), that's how it works. Once the backyard operators are run out of town the big guys can increase the price and drop the quality.

I can't see how surfboards are going to go any differently to every other manufactured product. Look at any manufactured product virtually. All furniture used to be hand crafted - now 99% mass produced. Mass produced doesn't mean shite quality, it just means that you have to look around to avoid getting caught with shite, and the uninformed will inevitably buy shite.

There are still people around who make furniture by hand, but Matt is right. The only way they can survive is to charge a lot more than for a mass manufactured piece. What do you get - an individual product that is never the same as someone else's. An original. So they will survive if they can convince enough punters to pay more for their specialised product.

And then there are others who will turn their hand to making their own just cause they love to do it, even if it costs them more in dollars and time.

By the way, I got my webber for under $600. If the price was $725 or more I would have got something else.

As for capitalism, I suspect (and hope) that its days are numbered. I just hope that what comes round after it is better, but I doubt it

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Post by longbum » Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:59 pm

Ok, I have GSI webbers in my shop. They look and feel just as good as any Oz made product.
We actually test rode them before we stocked them and altho I was very sceptical they actually went really good. Obviously thru the sales pitch they spent a lot of time on the manafacturing point and again was quite impressed on the time and monies spent on setting up the whole program. The average Joe wouldn't be able to pick the diff if there were no sticker on it.

Now for a retailer who prides themselves on surfboards and does so in a big way, you will not survive long by just stocking Oz made boards unless your doing close to 800-1000 boards per year as margins are very low to start with before you start wheeling and dealing.

80% of our rack is Oz made boards and hopefully always will be. But you do need something in there that can cover the margins you drop on the other boards and what webbers can offer is a low priced board for the retailer AND the consumer. A glossed webber board for $690 is bloody cheap !!!

So I got thinking, I've pretty much grown up in the industry, and we the consumer have always wanted the most for our buck then some. I've heard it for so so many years.....So we are really pushing these guys to mass produce over sees cause we want more and nobody wants to pay the realistic price of $1000 for a board, cause thats how much they really should be. There at a stretch now with no more room to move in Oz. I think you'll see more and more guys shifting production overseas.

Thats not to say its going to be of inferior quality, it will basically give these guys more cash and time to spend on devloping new designs and techniques......

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Post by munch » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:30 pm

ric_vidal wrote: I am taking liberties, just trying to demonstrate a point. No CNC on a Tuflite to my limited knowledge, it’s a moulded EPS blank based on the ‘designer’s’ master.

The margins on the Tuflites ain’t that mu(n)ch actually, I’ve seen the wholesale and rec. retail for the Tuflites. Too many fingers in the pot - middle-man, royalties, marketing & advertising, import duty, blah, blah.

Still comes down to what do you want so go and take my poll...
I was refering to the poly boards :arrow: not eps ... but my last point is your going to be paying the same money for a poly board :arrow: on one hand it goes into aussies pockets and on the other it goes into tax/transportation and as you say middle-man etc .... ;) :D

ric_vidal wrote: Liked it better when you were on your honeymoon Munchausen :D
as if I didn't either, now if youse could organise a permanent one it'd be appreciated ;)
If it's well engineered it's beautiful .

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Post by ric_vidal » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:52 pm

munch wrote:I was refering to the poly boards :arrow: not eps ... but my last point is your going to be paying the same money for a poly board :arrow: on one hand it goes into aussies pockets and on the other it goes into tax/transportation and as you say middle-man etc .... ;) :D
So sorry master munch, mucho mistaken on my behalf.

OK, how come we got $399 retail poly boards available out there and someone is making a profit?

I think the way surf culture(?) is it will probably back peddle for some of the ‘designers’ due to over-supply and over-exposure. Every noticed the way board and clothing brands come in and out of favour?

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Post by longbum » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:57 pm

ric_vidal wrote:
munch wrote:
OK, how come we got $399 retail poly boards available out there and someone is making a profit?

I think the way surf culture(?) is it will probably back peddle for some of the ‘designers’ due to over-supply and over-exposure. Every noticed the way board and clothing brands come in and out of favour?
1. Cheaper materials = way cheaper retail price, + a lot of retailers beleive it or not will burn a surfboard to make profit on a pair of boardies......??? often the store that can't sell a board cause they know shit and just want a new crowd in, so suck them in with a cheap board.

2. Yep, brands will come in and go out, like fashion, and the ones that aren't pushing the pedal and saturating the market, that are looking forward instead of the quick buk will always be the ones still standing.
Saturation = short life.

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Post by brenno05 » Tue Mar 21, 2006 6:08 pm

what other board brands sold at ur standard surf shop are asian pop outs just out of interest?
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Post by ric_vidal » Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:15 pm

brenno05 wrote:what other board brands sold at ur standard surf shop are asian pop outs just out of interest?
According to Australian Government Custom’s requirements all imported boards should be labelled with their country of origin and construction materials.

Deluxe, Blue, 7s (?), Water(something), BIC, Speeedfins also has a brand from China and a lot of the entry level alternatives, NSP, Hot Grommet, etc

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Post by longbum » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:24 am

brenno05 wrote:what other board brands sold at ur standard surf shop are asian pop outs just out of interest?
There are a lot and will be a lot more, but if your wondering about a board, ric's right, all you have to do is look for the sticker. :wink:

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Post by offshore1 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:51 am

Really, there's no stopping it (mega-large scale surfboard production).

The economic forces in play today in the surfboard industry are similar to what the industrial revolution did to textile manufacturing in Britain and the US in the late 17/ early 1800's; ie. uprooting dispersed small cottage industry participants and centralising production into factories.

I just saw this on the web:

Quote:
Al Merrick will launch a second surfboard line – “Anacapa” starting summer of 2006.

The “Anacapa” line consists of four performance designs; two small wave shapes, one all around shortboard, and one hybrid. All boards were designed by Al Merrick and the range and brand has been licensed to Global Surf Industries for production and worldwide distribution.

“I designed a limited second line of surfboards which will allow a broader range of surfers to get aspects of my designs in an entry - intermediate level surfboard. My personal focus will remain on my Channel Islands Surfboards brand, team research and building the highest quality custom boards.” Al Merrick.


Of course, no analogy is 100%, I feel there'll still be room for the local shaper for those of us who want to experiment.

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Post by Nick Carroll » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:08 am

offshore1 wrote: The “Anacapa” line consists of four performance designs; two small wave shapes, one all around shortboard, and one hybrid. All boards were designed by Al Merrick and the range and brand has been licensed to Global Surf Industries for production and worldwide distribution.
Would think with this line, GSI will now overtake SurfTech as the biggest single board manufacturer in the world.

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hello everyone

Post by haydenshapes » Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:56 pm

I was just checking out realsurf and saw this forum - interesting topic and responses. As you all probably know I am manufacturing out of Polo Ave Mona Vale which i moved into 1 1/2 years ago. Greg Webber moved into a factory 4 doors down from me 1/2 a year ago and I speak to him regurally. Greg manufactures boards via many different avenues and for the most of it - ie except for Taj's boards and a couple of other lucky customers, they are shaped by other finish shapers in his factory, the "Laminator" and via GSI, Solomon etc. Seems like a messy setup having things done all over the place - hard to control and know what is happening - but that is his choice. The reasons why he chooses to run his company like this? I don't know but i think that is the type of guy Greg is. A very eccentric minded person which reflects in his shapes and other ideas. At the moment you have probably heard that he is working on a wave pool - which will the future of the sport and the complete globalisation of the sport too - imagine surfing in Russia or in the middle of China. This idea is consuming alot of his time and therefore unable to spend the long hours in the bay finishing off boards for his customers. For the better or worse? who knows? hopefully he is able to get his idea of a wave pool running and you as a surfer will be stoked to ride perfect waves in your back yard and Greg himself might be able to retire while he can still surf, travel and spend time with his family.
Myself on the other hand have been shaping for 9 years and been focussing on shaping full time for 3-4 years. It is an amazing challenge to design and innovate the best surfboards in the world. This is one of the things that draws me to shaping surfboards. I enjoy speaking with customers, finding out what they are after and then the challenge of shaping a board that will work for them. I am continually faced with the fact that a board may not work for a rider and this can be a depressing factor with shaping. All a shaper can ask is for feedback! Without this there is no moving forward. So if any person ever gets a board off me and either likes it or dislikes it, please give me feedback!
As for hand shaping vs machine profiling - i am 100% towards machine profiling. Not for the fact that you can manufacture more boards in a day or it is uses less physical effort but for the fact that with a machine like the APS3000 you are able to design and improve a design down to the mm on the software and then replicate it for your customers. Yes there are issues with how well the machine cuts, the scaling, the finish shaping, the glassing etc but on the whole this process of manufacturing is many levels beyond the hand shaping methods. The other benifits is the Research and Development that we do with our riders means a lot more to us as since we know accurately the rocker, outline and foil of each board that we shape.

As for Webber vs Haydenshapes :) I would try both, ride them and see what works for you best. I know if you come down and see me, I will talk to you about what you want in a board, explain the shapes that i do, and use the best materials and production techniques on your surfboard that you will have in your hands within 2-3 weeks.

Last of all enjoy surfing and have fun,

Hayden

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Post by Nick Carroll » Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:43 pm

Go Hayden!

Having ridden both I can say my take is that Greg's boards are more refined, but Hayden has his hands on a faster rocker curve and is working his way toward a refined understanding of rail and stringer foils. One day he will be one of the country's finest and most reputable designers, right now he's a smart ambitious grom who's leaving as few stones unturned as possible.

I don't reckon Webber ever sleeps, it must drive his family crazy, he's soooo deep into whatever he decides to pursue and he won't take no for an answer, he's not an ego-stroking sort of boardmaker but he gets a lot of orders from top pros, not just the guys on retainer. This is because of his refinement and ability to balance concave against rail curves.

Far as I can see we're lucky to have both these guys around to make our boards.

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