Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by Cuttlefish » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:15 pm

Why no James. Do tell.
But really I'm into supporting local retailers if I can so no Mark's and Spencers for me.
I'll shop at Myers. :lol:
Back on topic...Kookster try a set of Stretch fronts with GXQ rears which I have found work really well on my backhand.
You know who has them. :wink:
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by jimmy » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:51 pm

Cuttlefish wrote:Why no James. Do tell.
But really I'm into supporting local retailers if I can so no Mark's and Spencers for me.
I'll shop at Myers. :lol:
Back on topic...Kookster try a set of Stretch fronts with GXQ rears which I have found work really well on my backhand.
You know who has them. :wink:
That's OK. I understand that the collective IQ of the MORE enthusiasts would be equal to Trevs (and that's giving Trev a leg up).
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by Cuttlefish » Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:22 am

jimmy wrote:Josh. Your work is amazing and the next board I buy will be from you. Just gotta cut the quiver down to four from ten boards..




Have you thought about getting some Bogan Queenslanders involved in your marketing campaign? Nah. Didn't think so.
He definitely doesn't need any help from bogan immigrants from the Southern states.
Why would JD when he can have a flailer like you promising to buy a board so you can demonstrate 101 different ways to fall off one of his boards for all and sundry?
Keep sucking up James...chase that Bro's discount. :wink:
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by robzig » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:40 am

:|
Last edited by robzig on Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by crabmeat thompson » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:44 am

kookster wrote:
Braithy can you explain rear stabilisers a bit more please. You mean just stubby keels rather than full fins? I assume this type of setup would work more because fins are releasing, rather than the board "turning"? Same effect so it's something I might try.
An MR twin fin pack has two fins and a little stabliser fin for use as a third fin when its bigger. A board shop here sells second hand fins, they're just all chucked into a big basket. I was rummaging through it and stumbled across another MR stabliser. So I put it in the quad.

For me it was the best balance between drive and pivot, and more importantly for me, it was the set up that really made the dumpling fly. You could throw it around like nothing else.
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by Cpt.Caveman » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:23 am

I've been playing around with fins a lot with my quads in the past and the more I swap boards with friends the more I realise how personal fin preferences are. More recently I've been surfing my semi-finless a lot which has changed my tastes towards slightly less fin and more rail/edge control in my HPS boards. For example I've surfed a friends 5'4" wide-tail MG Retro Fish, very similar in planshape and all to your dim-SIM kookster, but since surfing semi-finless a lot I actually like having very small fins and having tail release available when I want it.

For background I'm 5'11", around 86kg. For another example, in my 6'0" quadfather I tend to like KFin/G1000, however my friend who has a very similar 6'1" quadfather and is a little lighter and taller than me, he prefers carbon G5/tiny weeny nubster trailers. I surf it and think it feels to skatey but he loves it.

I used to use PC3/G1000 in my 5'11" Swinger but since surfing semi-finless a lot I now prefer PC3/MR-TX(rears).

I've surfed a friends quad fin fish that is very similar in planshape etc. to your dim-SIM kookster, and the wide tail can effect backhand pivot to some degree but fin size, vee, tail rocker and the rest can make up for it easily. To give you an example, this board had the Future Fins equivalent of M3/GX fins and it was more than capable of top-to-bottom surfing both back and forehand. M3/GX is not much fin area at all, so it require some sensitivity to surf off the rail/edge/concave some more, but I enjoy that. I know how MP designs his boards, hes always trying to keep them free in the tail so I would hesitate to guess its the fin size/spread thats the problem.

My general rule for tweaking the fins in a quad for what you like are as follows:

1) Start with a pretty standard template and size spread (e.g. M5/M3 or M3/G1000). Surf it for a little while and feel it out, spend a couple of sessions paying attention to finding the sweet spot. Thats super important in all quads I've surfed, the difference between on and off the sweet spot can make a big difference to how it surfs.

2) Think about how you want it to perform differently (lets say you started with M5/M3 for example):

- If the board feels too stiff off both the front and back foot (e.g. difficult to do pump turns, stiff to throw over into a turn), decrease the fin size both front and back (e.g. to M3/G1000). The same goes if you want more tail release through turns, drop the whole fin area down.

- If the board feels too stiff too turn off the front foot or to do trim-pumps, then use a more upright front fin (e.g. K2.1, TC Aqualine instead of M5 or M3).

- If the board feels too stiff to turn off the back foot, i.e. its turning radius is not sharp enough, decrease the size of the rear fins (e.g. M3 down to G1000, or G1000 down to GX). Always use double foiled rear fins, single foiled just feels terrible for responsive surfing.

- If you feel you have lost too much drive from dropping fin size down you have two choices. Changing from glassflex to a fibreglass construction will give you a big boost in drive and slightly stiffen the board too (e.g. changing from M3 to PC3 will boost drive big time, but keeping the rear fins glassflex will still keep some of the forgiving feel). I've also really enjoyed a twinny and stabiliser type set-up in quads with a pulled in tail (e.g. MR-TFX front/MR-TX glassflex rear). That one was a nice blend of super fast and tail release.


I would hesitate to guess you might like M3/G1000 in the dim-SIM kookster. I know it might seem like very little fin at first, but remember if you add up the fin area of all four fins your always going get a little more than similar fins x 3 (thruster), and you're always going to have another fin close to the rail helping out when you lay the board over. If you're only surfing the board in smaller waves I reckon you might also like a fibreglass M3 equivalent with GX or similar in the tail. That will be very easy to throw around. If you're in Sydney or are ever down here I'd be happy to lend you some fins.
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by kookster » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:40 am

Outstanding response Cavey, thanks mate. It's actually a "Dumpling" but yeah it has some mini sim aspects for sure and I love that it's non-conformist in just about every way.

FWIW I surfed it in wedgey wind-affected beachies today as quad format with double foiled M3s in front and back and liked the controllable slide but it still have heaps of hold on steep drops. I do definitely like the quad feel better overall, it's such a rewarding thing to stay so high on the wall and beat the closeout sections or flip just over the top of them.

Thanks to all for input, I now have the road map for the next leg of the journey...
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by Donweather » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:47 am

Cpt.Caveman wrote:I've been playing around with fins a lot with my quads in the past and the more I swap boards with friends the more I realise how personal fin preferences are. More recently I've been surfing my semi-finless a lot which has changed my tastes towards slightly less fin and more rail/edge control in my HPS boards. For example I've surfed a friends 5'4" wide-tail MG Retro Fish, very similar in planshape and all to your dim-SIM kookster, but since surfing semi-finless a lot I actually like having very small fins and having tail release available when I want it.

For background I'm 5'11", around 86kg. For another example, in my 6'0" quadfather I tend to like KFin/G1000, however my friend who has a very similar 6'1" quadfather and is a little lighter and taller than me, he prefers carbon G5/tiny weeny nubster trailers. I surf it and think it feels to skatey but he loves it.

I used to use PC3/G1000 in my 5'11" Swinger but since surfing semi-finless a lot I now prefer PC3/MR-TX(rears).

I've surfed a friends quad fin fish that is very similar in planshape etc. to your dim-SIM kookster, and the wide tail can effect backhand pivot to some degree but fin size, vee, tail rocker and the rest can make up for it easily. To give you an example, this board had the Future Fins equivalent of M3/GX fins and it was more than capable of top-to-bottom surfing both back and forehand. M3/GX is not much fin area at all, so it require some sensitivity to surf off the rail/edge/concave some more, but I enjoy that. I know how MP designs his boards, hes always trying to keep them free in the tail so I would hesitate to guess its the fin size/spread thats the problem.

My general rule for tweaking the fins in a quad for what you like are as follows:

1) Start with a pretty standard template and size spread (e.g. M5/M3 or M3/G1000). Surf it for a little while and feel it out, spend a couple of sessions paying attention to finding the sweet spot. Thats super important in all quads I've surfed, the difference between on and off the sweet spot can make a big difference to how it surfs.

2) Think about how you want it to perform differently (lets say you started with M5/M3 for example):

- If the board feels too stiff off both the front and back foot (e.g. difficult to do pump turns, stiff to throw over into a turn), decrease the fin size both front and back (e.g. to M3/G1000). The same goes if you want more tail release through turns, drop the whole fin area down.

- If the board feels too stiff too turn off the front foot or to do trim-pumps, then use a more upright front fin (e.g. K2.1, TC Aqualine instead of M5 or M3).

- If the board feels too stiff to turn off the back foot, i.e. its turning radius is not sharp enough, decrease the size of the rear fins (e.g. M3 down to G1000, or G1000 down to GX). Always use double foiled rear fins, single foiled just feels terrible for responsive surfing.

- If you feel you have lost too much drive from dropping fin size down you have two choices. Changing from glassflex to a fibreglass construction will give you a big boost in drive and slightly stiffen the board too (e.g. changing from M3 to PC3 will boost drive big time, but keeping the rear fins glassflex will still keep some of the forgiving feel). I've also really enjoyed a twinny and stabiliser type set-up in quads with a pulled in tail (e.g. MR-TFX front/MR-TX glassflex rear). That one was a nice blend of super fast and tail release.


I would hesitate to guess you might like M3/G1000 in the dim-SIM kookster. I know it might seem like very little fin at first, but remember if you add up the fin area of all four fins your always going get a little more than similar fins x 3 (thruster), and you're always going to have another fin close to the rail helping out when you lay the board over. If you're only surfing the board in smaller waves I reckon you might also like a fibreglass M3 equivalent with GX or similar in the tail. That will be very easy to throw around. If you're in Sydney or are ever down here I'd be happy to lend you some fins.
Listen to this advice above. CC is onto it with his advice!!!

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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by Cpt.Caveman » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:05 pm

Thanks guys, just happy to share my experiences with lots of trial and error. If it saves someone else from needing to try 10 different combinations and only trying 3 or 4, my job is done :)
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by Nick Carroll » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:40 pm

hey kookster, here's a way of thinking about fins.

Basically, they provide drag points that help tip the board on to certain angles in turns.

The thruster's drag points are set in a sort of triangle. In any turn, you're going to be engaging two of the three fins -- one rail fin and the rear centre fin.

This gives you quite a wide range of angles into which you can set the board. You can engage any part of the outline and rocker in these two fins' field of effect, most particularly every bit from the back tail edge to around a third of the way up.

A quad's drag points are set along two fairly separate bands, along the rail lines either side of the stringer. In any quad turn, you're gonna be engaging one or other of these two-fin sets. This limits the available angles in a turn, enhancing some of the outline/rocker (the more parallel angles available from close to the fin set to up past the wide point) and detracting from the rest (specially the last 6-8" of tail outline).

So the thruster makes available more and steeper turn angles. But! It comes at a cost. Two of the three fins in a thruster will pretty much always have more surface area (and thus more drag) than two rail fins in a quad. Plus, a central drag point is always in play; it never goes away unless the tail's out of the water altogether. So while it will tip more, it'll also drag more.

Your thinking about holding a higher line with a quad is partly accurate; all else being equal, since a quad's effects are so focused on the parallel, then it'll definitely hold better higher on the face. But that's not why a quad feels faster; you'll only gain speed from a high point on the face by leaving it.

Rather the quad feels faster because again, all things being equal, the fin set doesn't drag as much.

All of these fin effects can be modified in board design, you can make a super lifty bottom to get around the three fin drag thing, or you can alter a quad's fin placement to broaden its turning range, or you can simply choose to design to the set-up's strengths.

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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by Cpt.Caveman » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:55 am

Thanks for the insight NC, I never thought of it like that.

Its back to the similar trade-off I guess, if you want a board that drives and runs through it turns a quad package is better suited, if you want to pivot harder on the spot to keep yourself back in the powerpocket, a thruster package is better suited.
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by spork » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:12 pm

I spent half an hour at the weekend making a nubster fin for the middle of my quad. Not for any reason in particular, but just to see what it feels like. Sadly there has been no waves yet.It looks like this.
nub.jpg
nub.jpg (4.29 KiB) Viewed 11488 times
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by kookster » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:44 pm

Thanks Nick

Spork that is exactly what I plan to do :-) :-)

Now tell me which way will you run it, because I've seen them done both ways.
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by spork » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:28 pm

The low end goes to the front: I used an old centre fin to shape it off, so followed the foil. Most of the online ones have one tab in the middle, I started the slope at the front tab and angled it back from there, so two tabs. I think Kelly has his further back, but my fin wasn't long enough to allow that.
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by kookster » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:01 pm

Did you use a glass fin, or is it possible to make em from those standard hard plastic FCS ones? I was just going to stupid on an old M7 centre fin with a cutting disc on the 4" angle grinder then try to get some sort of foil back on it....
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by spork » Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:32 pm

plastic is fine, cut with hacksaw, grind to approx foil, file to correct foil, sand with wet and dry, polish with good car cutting compound.
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by kookster » Thu Mar 15, 2012 3:34 pm

How did you do your foil mate? From every pic I can find it looks like the foil is back to front (thick side back, thin side forward). Not sure if it makes any difference....
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Re: Quad / Thruster ride report - fin advice needed

Post by Nick Carroll » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:33 pm

yeah mate honestly with a thing like that it is not going to make much difference, it's only there to give you a little tiny sense of the board's centre line, stick it in whichever way you like and do a roughly accurate foil based on the nub's high point.

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