Alternative fin templates & materials

[dUg]

I discovered last week FCS have retired another perennial fin template. The "Occy" has gone the way of the TC Whiteline and Carbon Lite series fins, dropped from the range never to return.

Something that has always bothered me is that in FCS tabbed fins it's not possible to get the full range of materials in all templates. For instance, I would love to try a YU template in a hex core RTM ( FCS refers to this as "Performance Core" ), but no such thing exists... and there are countless other combos you can't seem to get ( and I am including other FCS compatable fin suppliers here ). I am sure FCS are sitting on a PC version of the K3 fin, since they already make it in Fibreglass and Glass Flex, and perhaps plan to *slowly* release others.

Of course, they would like you to believe there are only 3 types of fin construction and that's all you need ( I note the "Composite Core" GOODS-1 appears to be on the endangered specied list ), but I beg to differ.

I note a couple of alternative fin makers doing Bamboo core and Polycarb fins, and you'd have to ask if there's not still a niche for Carbon Fibre, or *shock* Kelvar composite fins. It's got me thinking of other possibile combinations of materials and templates, and even mixed combos for quads as a way of further tuning performance.

Anyone else wondered about this?

[huie]

haaa''
were there is money'' the waters get murky?

[ric_vidal]

I note a couple of alternative fin makers doing Bamboo core and Polycarb fins, and you'd have to ask if there's not still a niche for Carbon Fibre, or *shock* Kelvar composite fins. It's got me thinking of other possibile combinations of materials and templates, and even mixed combos for quads as a way of further tuning performance.

Still like polycarbonate, but there are so many different versions you would have to get it right - think the FCS polycarb plugs which were/are a disaster. Not the material, it was expecting the existing design to be right.

Kevlar - interesting material but hard to handle - hard to cut and basically doesn’t sand, just becomes furry. Pretty expensive relative to alternatives

Carbon - can be stiff, and brittle, expensive and kind of pointless unless maximising its potential with epoxy, but you could say the same with kevlar. Or the carbon/kevlar composites. Carbon still looks like a million bucks.

Texalium - same as above, looks great but don’t know the advantages

Lantor soric (the stuff in PC) seems like a good material to use in conjunction with glass - as they already do

dUg, biggest problem isn’t fins at the moment it’s the system plugs... but by that I should qualify, the plugs are now pretty dependable, just every 2nd repair that comes in has one crushed into the board. Either the tabs are too strong or the boards are too weak or both, probably the latter. Hence the compsand guys with their reinforcing blocks (Huie, Josh/Speedneedle, Sunova, Firewire, Surftech SLXs, etc, etc)

Had a guy in a couple of weeks ago, has already crushed one plug one side, next time he comes in both plugs on the other side and foam just sheered away in a massive chunk - just from doing a bloody bottom turn

If you have any you want made I think Fluid Foils still makes custom fins. Talk to Mark (PridMORE) he uses their services.

[PeepeelaPew]

...

[pridmore]

I am surprised at the amount of plugs that break, I have not had a single one of my boards have an issue with the plugs ( as far as I am aware ) , I really think it has alot to do with putting them in correctly....people seem to be slowly going back to glassed in fins lately....anybody who wants fins hand made can contact me via PM...any template, yours or a copy....prices are pretty good compared to buying FCS in a surf shop....

[Surfin Turf]

^^^^

what materials / construction can you do Mark ... for an example what would be the equivalent FCS type/s


I have broken a few but I stick prodominently with one set so think that age and prolonged use are probably the factor which is fair enough but very annoying that I can't replace what I like ...
my little brother who is 6'3", solid, and surfs very powerful, breaks fins and rips plugs out virtually every board ... I'm pretty sure they are in correctly ...

[pridmore]

hand foiled fibreglass fins to your template... yet to break a set ...
and I have been sussing out the G4's but my FCS contact didnt know anything bout them, must be an extinct set...so can copy template if you can trace onto cardboard and send thru....

[dUg]

Anyone else wondering, it's this stuff:

http://www.rplastics.com/g10sheet.html

Basically, the same material used in the manufacture of printed circuit boards used in electronic equipment / appliances. It's bloody strong, and also pretty light - but because it's so hard you'll spend a few hours hand foiling it.

I did some balsa core / epoxy glass-ins years ago and they were very light - and the balsa took care of the foil. I laminated them with 6oz ( 3 top 2 bottom I think ), but now I reckon they would have looked really cool sandwiched between carbon fibre. Stiff as though...


RV... I agree a Kevlar / epoxy laminate would be be near impossible to sand... but with a different core material to give it the foil you could do some interesting things. For example, how about a 100/0 inside foil, where the foil on the inside IS the outside foil? You'd have to get the toe of the fin exact... I reckon even half a degree out and the turbulence on the leading edge would be catastrophic! You can imagine the flex charachteristics though... all that stuff Speeedfins bang on about.

What I'd really like to see is someone step up to the plate with some sort of renewable core material combined with a non-petrochemical resin - applied to some of the classic templates. I remember seeing a doco on these cars they were building somewhere in Africa, using this combination of all natural materials that was cheap to produce, strong, and lightweight. The panels all had this "sappy" sort of colour to them.

Didn't look hard to mass produce, and looked like it would be perfect for injection molding or RTM type fabrication.

[ric_vidal]

dUg, the problem/consideration with most ‘natural/alternative’ is that it’s like ‘organic’ - too bloody expensive for the plebs (us).

And if you reckon any can’t is going to recycle fin material or others you are kidding yourself.

Plenty of materials that haven’t really been investigated from a moulding perspective, PET, HIPS, plaited pubic hairs from pigmies and a plethora of other materials. Hand lay-up well that involves people - too expensive already

This sh*t takes big bucks, look to those who are already doing...

[pridmore]

I'm getting some aluminium ones made up soon....I know Derek has or had a fish made of aluminium, not sure how it will be for fins but gunna have a look anyway.....

[Surfin Turf]

... materials that haven’t really been investigated from a moulding perspective... plaited pubic hairs from pigmies ...

if you can get them to flex well, I'd be up for test driving a set in a G4 outline ... when could you have a set ready ...

[dUg]

Turf I forgot to ask yesterday... the G4 dimensions... are they halfway between a G3 and G5, or do they pre-date that NASA template all the "G" fins now use? If so then the base would be something like 110mm and depth 113 - 114mm? Do you still have one to copy, or better, a center and one side? Talked to shaper mate last weekend... reckons he *might* have seen one set ( G4 ) in the late 90's... but never since!

[dUg]

dUg, the problem/consideration with most ‘natural/alternative’ is that it’s like ‘organic’ - too bloody expensive for the plebs (us).

And if you reckon any can’t is going to recycle fin material or others you are kidding yourself.

Plenty of materials that haven’t really been investigated from a moulding perspective, PET, HIPS, plaited pubic hairs from pigmies and a plethora of other materials. Hand lay-up well that involves people - too expensive already

This sh*t takes big bucks, look to those who are already doing...

rv, I guess the eco aspect was just one side of the topic, but it's still an area that hasn't been well researched IMHO... and may be a niche for someone smart that can get it off the ground. Natural ( cheap) fibres like Cuarua combined with natural resins have potential, but what will be awsome in years to come is when someone can figure out polypeptides and make cloth a few microns thin that's as strong as 6oz fibreglass. That's a way off though...

I was also talking about the current crop of materials that are in use, and how some are applied to some fin templates but not others. You can't buy carbon twin fins in an MR template for example... and I know lots of guys who'd go for 'em. Of course, as you say... they'd wanna make sure they don't have the sh1t FCS plugs in their boards...

[dUg]

I'm getting some aluminium ones made up soon....I know Derek has or had a fish made of aluminium, not sure how it will be for fins but gunna have a look anyway.....

... just pray you don't catch a rail when you're slotted, have the board flip and land on them. Owwwwwwwwwwwww.

Mark are these off a CNC Mill or hand shaped?

[Surfin Turf]

Turf I forgot to ask yesterday... the G4 dimensions... are they halfway between a G3 and G5, or do they pre-date that NASA template all the "G" fins now use? If so then the base would be something like 110mm and depth 113 - 114mm? Do you still have one to copy, or better, a center and one side? Talked to shaper mate last weekend... reckons he *might* have seen one set ( G4 ) in the late 90's... but never since!

the G4, size wise, did sit roughly between 3's and 5's (which I also have) but G4's do have more 'rake' giving them drive and ability to hold in larger surf despite having a regular sized base, and also provide momentum in smaller weaker surf ... but it's the flexibility of the black plastic gives them looseness to throw the tail around and they are also quite forgiving ...

they were discontinued about 6 years ago, but like me , those who liked them bought up, and those who have them (even lots) hang onto them dearly ... the guy who makes my boards has a stack but will not under any circumstances part with them, but has also tried and tried to find a suitable match to help out guys like me who want them ... between my little brother and me we have about 8 sets of outside fins but he has the only centre left ... my brother in law has a set and refuses to part with them as well stating they are also his favourite fins ... plenty of FCS dealers will tell you that there are various fins in the range that give the same characteristics but they simply don't ... and god knows I've tried them ...

I have found the exact outline fin, and in a very good quality construnction ... they provide heaps of drive and speed but lack the looseness big time despite having some flex ...

I believe I am destine to roam the wastelands in search of this elusive dream ...

damn you FCS ... DAMN yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooou

[black duck]

^^^^ Surfin, have you contacted FCS ? Maybe it's not a huge deal for them to pull out the old mould and punch a few out? Might be a minimum number required to make a production run worthwhile but by the sound of it, there is a demand out there. Assume they would still have a master mould. Maybe if they knew how many people were hoarding the old fins it would be worth their while?

I don't know any fcs people but someone on RS may know someone from the sydney office ? Their web site is pretty good, shouldn't be hard to contact them. Maybe you've been down that path already...

[ric_vidal]

I'm getting some aluminium ones made up soon....I know Derek has or had a fish made of aluminium, not sure how it will be for fins but gunna have a look anyway.....

aluminium and salt water = corrosion, Prids. Yes, yes I know FCS make some tow versions, but not sure how they are finished. Make sure they are coated or rinsed regularly. If they are coated I can’t see how they would survive the constant abrasion in the plugs.

[Surfin Turf]

Maybe you've been down that path already...

unfortunately a no go ... we know someone who is in a reasonably senior position there and has tried for us over the years but still a no ... they come back with the plenty of alternatives that do the same job and better with the improved technology story ... I have asked a number of times over the years ... I do believe that like the rest of the surf industry (and any industry for that matter) it's about making money from the masses rather than helping out an old boy with a niche product ...

you never know though , as long as I keep trying alternatives a new design might come along that suits me better anyway ...