FCS Quads - What are you using ?

[pinhead]

I was very skeptical of the whole quad thing, but I was hearing and reading so many positive reports I decided to make one. I Googled quad and found that the ones that got the most positive reviews were the Stretch quad in the US and the McKee set up (Hayden, Bourton) in Australia. So I built mine using the McKee set up. The shape is more of a semi-fish thing, not really a groveller, but it works well in small waves. It doesn't really feel like a thruster, it feels like a skateboard. Having the back fins closer to the rail seems to make it go faster in trim. With a thruster you need to keep pumping from rail to rail to maintain speed. With this one, I don't need to do that, so I have a bit more time to set up turns. I'm using smaller double foiled fins in the back. The board has a flat tail rocker with double concaves and double flyers to give it a more pivoty feel with the double foiled rear fins.

[dUg]

Nice work pinhead, very nice indeed. =)

For a sec there I thought you'd ploughed two muthaluvva concave channels through it... but I think it's just the grain of the timber.

Is this a compsand or all balsa? Any more pics?

I'm about to delve into the whole backyard compsand thing myself, hence my interest. I'm also planning a quad, but I won't be using bagged construction - got a few sneaky, different ideas I hope will work.

I'll be using a very similar setup to the borrowed Sunova quad I have been riding, e.g. all sides & small trailers in a tight cluster. Pretty different setup to yours, I'd really love to compare them on identical boards but that's never gonna happen!

[pridmore]

Nice work pinhead, very nice indeed. =)

For a sec there I thought you'd ploughed two muthaluvva concave channels through it... but I think it's just the grain of the timber.

Is this a compsand or all balsa? Any more pics?

I'm about to delve into the whole backyard compsand thing myself, hence my interest. I'm also planning a quad, but I won't be using bagged construction - got a few sneaky, different ideas I hope will work.

I'll be using a very similar setup to the borrowed Sunova quad I have been riding, e.g. all sides & small trailers in a tight cluster. Pretty different setup to yours, I'd really love to compare them on identical boards but that's never gonna happen!

you should chat with Mr. Vidal, he is a wealth of knowledge on the construction of such boards ...as for the fins, you can always set plugs for both placements but the weight might be an issue ??? depends if this 1 boards performance is the no 1 priority or to know more about the fin set-ups ??? lot of ok in a compsand but and if you were to affect the performance by adding too much weight...maybe better off doing all plugs on a PU/PE...best of luck with oard...keen to see pics ..what dims and shape you doin ?? what blank etc...have you looked into the CDD foam ? maybe contact Pete at Empire foam or Huie ( RS member )...

[DV8]

Given I have quite a few various model fins in different materials and flexes that are all similar to say " 5's " in size would it be fair to say if I'm to get something like M7 and M3's mix and match the 3-5-7's I should be able to come up with a good combination ??

[dUg]

you should chat with Mr. Vidal, he is a wealth of knowledge on the construction of such boards ...as for the fins, you can always set plugs for both placements but the weight might be an issue ??? depends if this 1 boards performance is the no 1 priority or to know more about the fin set-ups ??? lot of ok in a compsand but and if you were to affect the performance by adding too much weight...maybe better off doing all plugs on a PU/PE...best of luck with oard...keen to see pics ..what dims and shape you doin ?? what blank etc...have you looked into the CDD foam ? maybe contact Pete at Empire foam or Huie ( RS member )...

Mr Vidal has lured me over to the dark side at the compsand forum, so it's only a matter of time before I embarrass myself over there as well .

It's definitely not about having a play with fin set ups - done far too much of that! I have a good idea what works for me in terms of stiffness, area and placement / toe / cant and I won't be deviating very far from that ( a degree / mm or two maybe). I've done three styro / epoxy boards using home made blanks before so I am under no illusions as to what I'm in for...

Board will be 6"0 and 2 3/8" thick, I'll trim the widest point back to about 19" or maybe even a poofteenth less. Outline will be fishy but transitioning to more of a shortboard shape at this stage, hoping to compensate for the lost half inch of width with slightly boxy / low rails. I only weigh 66kg so buoyancy isn't a big issue for me.

I'll be making the blank from scratch but my approach is top secret, so if it's a dog's breakfast no-one will know!!! Foam is no problem, got plenty ( stryo ), but I will be chasing some balsa sheet for the bottom and strip for the rails, plus blocks for tail / nose / fin boxes ( I'll be using the x2 FCS plugs ).

The whole thing is pretty experimental, and there's every likelyhood it'll end in disaster... but we'll see.

[pridmore]

keep us informed and some pics as you go would be cool...best of luck, keen to see how it turns out..

[pinhead]

Sorry guys I didn't mean to turn this into a compsand thread (plenty of that stuff over at Swaylocks) - I was just posting a pic of the board for reference. The dims are 5'11" x 11 1/2", 18 1/2", 14 3/4" x 2 3/16". The fins are M5's up front, GX double foiled at the back. I weight 65 kg. I guess that would scale to M7's and G1000's for a big guy. I foiled the tail a bit thicker to allow for the extra weight from fins, HD inserts and plugs.

quad.jpg (21.57 KiB) Viewed 10735 times

[mckeequattro]

Howdy folks,
have been checking out a lot of forums to get the feedback on my fin positioning for quads. I appreciate all the comments, negative included.
Over the past year I have updated the fin position formula and due to the feedback and previous 'grey-zones', I've added the 'Width between back fins formula'.
I have increased the width between the back fins a 3/8" in total which has been in two 6 months stages.
If you download the 'Width between back fins formula', you will find a chart that now caters to different length boards, tail widths and their back fin distances from the tail block.
Mixing this with the 2009 January update formula and there should be a fairly accurate base to make your references from. A bit of a mind boggle at first but helpful to those with hangovers.
The back fin widths are for use with a side fin plug location jig.. for uniformity, and ease of production, though that's up to the shaper.

Fins to use.
I originally designed the system around the old FCS G3 fins which were stiff. I used all side fins originally (my weight being around 78kg) but found that G3 double foils on the back gave a more 'Thrusterish' lateral pivot, but reduced the drive.

I also went on to placing the old G5 on the back. The increased drive with a bit of extra flex from the tail allowed some slamming bottom turns and cutbacks with an ease to initiate the turn because of the flex.
I like to stand on the tail and push, though many riders will prefer an easier to turn option.
The key is total fin area. Like correct tyre size to balance your car.
For my weight a favourite mix is the K2.1 which has a solid front fin with the old G3 fin on the back. The fronts are larger but the rears not too small.

My rear fin position also aids to this 'Thrusterish' feel. Fins out on the rail have more drive but the board may inherit the old Quad fin feel problems of the past.. rail-grab, delayed redirection or 'twin-fin' like feel etc..

Choosing your Quad fin mix, will depend on the position of your cluster and the amount of over-steer, neutral or understeer needed or desired, also your weight.
It is good to test a board with all the fins of the same size to find the total combined area needed, and how balanced the fin positioning is in relation to the size of the fins. If the total area of the set feels good (not too grippy or not too slidey) then that total combined area is good. If the area is good but want more pivot, increase the fronts and reduce the backs in the same proportion.

FCS are bringing out a new M4 McKeeQuattro back fin (available in inside foil or double foil).
They can also be used as a full set for lighter to mid weight riders or for tow-in boards etc.
Also will be a good tail fin on semi guns for mid weight to larger riders.
The size is situated between a M3 and the G1000.

For 78KG approx, a M5 front would be good on the front making the mix very pivotal yet drivey.
Putting side fins on the back will give more drive.
Having M3 front fins and the M4Quattro on the back will be slightly more forgiving and neutral in feel.
A good test is also to have two different back fins. A side foil on one side and a double foil on the other. This makes a great asymmetrical mix for point breaks. Check the web site for more examples.
For fish type boards, YU or AM type fins on the front with G1000 on the back, give a good recentering feel as the extended tips take out the skittishness of the wider tails and straighten the board up well after manoeuvres. The G1000 have a good area and flex to balance the mix.

Well hope all that helps.. Lots more unnecessary raving at
http://www.mckeesurf.com/brucemckee/multisystem.htm

Thanks for all the feedback.
Cheers. McKee

[DV8]

O

Howdy folks,
have been checking out a lot of forums to get the feedback on my fin positioning for quads. I appreciate all the comments, negative included.
Over the past year I have updated the fin position formula and due to the feedback and previous 'grey-zones', I've added the 'Width between back fins formula'.
I have increased the width between the back fins a 3/8" in total which has been in two 6 months stages.
If you download the 'Width between back fins formula', you will find a chart that now caters to different length boards, tail widths and their back fin distances from the tail block.
Mixing this with the 2009 January update formula and there should be a fairly accurate base to make your references from. A bit of a mind boggle at first but helpful to those with hangovers.
The back fin widths are for use with a side fin plug location jig.. for uniformity, and ease of production, though that's up to the shaper.

Fins to use.
I originally designed the system around the old FCS G3 fins which were stiff. I used all side fins originally (my weight being around 78kg) but found that G3 double foils on the back gave a more 'Thrusterish' lateral pivot, but reduced the drive.

I also went on to placing the old G5 on the back. The increased drive with a bit of extra flex from the tail allowed some slamming bottom turns and cutbacks with an ease to initiate the turn because of the flex.
I like to stand on the tail and push, though many riders will prefer an easier to turn option.
The key is total fin area. Like correct tyre size to balance your car.
For my weight a favourite mix is the K2.1 which has a solid front fin with the old G3 fin on the back. The fronts are larger but the rears not too small.

My rear fin position also aids to this 'Thrusterish' feel. Fins out on the rail have more drive but the board may inherit the old Quad fin feel problems of the past.. rail-grab, delayed redirection or 'twin-fin' like feel etc..

Choosing your Quad fin mix, will depend on the position of your cluster and the amount of over-steer, neutral or understeer needed or desired, also your weight.
It is good to test a board with all the fins of the same size to find the total combined area needed, and how balanced the fin positioning is in relation to the size of the fins. If the total area of the set feels good (not too grippy or not too slidey) then that total combined area is good. If the area is good but want more pivot, increase the fronts and reduce the backs in the same proportion.

FCS are bringing out a new M4 McKeeQuattro back fin (available in inside foil or double foil).
They can also be used as a full set for lighter to mid weight riders or for tow-in boards etc.
Also will be a good tail fin on semi guns for mid weight to larger riders.
The size is situated between a M3 and the G1000.

For 78KG approx, a M5 front would be good on the front making the mix very pivotal yet drivey.
Putting side fins on the back will give more drive.
Having M3 front fins and the M4Quattro on the back will be slightly more forgiving and neutral in feel.
A good test is also to have two different back fins. A side foil on one side and a double foil on the other. This makes a great asymmetrical mix for point breaks. Check the web site for more examples.
For fish type boards, YU or AM type fins on the front with G1000 on the back, give a good recentering feel as the extended tips take out the skittishness of the wider tails and straighten the board up well after manoeuvres. The G1000 have a good area and flex to balance the mix.

Well hope all that helps.. Lots more unnecessary raving at
http://www.mckeesurf.com/brucemckee/multisystem.htm

Thanks for all the feedback.
Cheers. McKee

Oops now you have done it Mckee...............
86kg hgt 6'3 and a bit
Board Quad 6'4 x20/1/2 x2/3/8 performance type groveller for 2/3ft capable surfer .
Fin placement in line with your chart for board dimensions
What fin combo would you suggest would be a starting point ? PM me if you don't want to start a endless questionare........cheers Mckee !

[pridmore]

great to have you on this forum and sharing your knowledge...funny you should say about the old plastic G5's having more flex and working well, I tried a very similar set up the other day on a new shape and it felt great, super snappy and positive....had fibreglass hand foiled M3's on front and plastic G5's trailing....turning on a dime with a bit of freedom off the top but only when I wanted to ...interesting stuff about the wider tailed boards, I make mostly wider tailed designs and will be trying the templates you suggested... would be stoked to share some of my different fins and designs if interested ...my e-mail is in my profile, I can then send pics for you to check em out...

no harm in trying...

[Slowman]

I bought my first quad about 12 months ago and after extensive research and experimentation I'm back riding a thruster. When I bought that quad I don't know how but I think there was a gang of surfboard manufacturing spooks following me everywhere and lacing my food or drinks with acid because I think now the whole thing was a halucination.

Well not really, but the romance is over I think. I still ride it but I think the best combination is something close to what I started with near the beginning. FG-7s at the front and GXs at the rear. I had 2 quads both Stretch F4s one 6'5" and the other 6'1". Originally the 6'5" came with SF4 fins and they were not so good so I switched to the FG-7 and GX set up and finally got some GX-Qs for the rear, which softened the transition from rail to rail, and eventually used PC3s for the front. These fins were just too small for me and it killed the drive. If you ever water skied and you get someone that drives the boat and pulls you out of the water and doesn't keep the power going, you get up with a surge, accelerate and then glide and slow down and almost stop. That is how it bottom turned. So I put the FG-7s back in the front and now the drive has returned and the board goes all right again but I was almost about to sell it as I was always having a better surf on my thruster (6'5" Afterburner).

The weird thing is with the FG-7s I reckon it even paddles faster. The 6'1" has more volume in it than my 6'5" afterburner and I just couldn't figure out what it seemed to feel so dead both trying to paddle it onto waves and when trying to get it to accelerate. Whatever it is it seems these fins really suit the board and me on it. At 6'1" and around 88kg I'm no lightweight so I need a bit of fin to drive off.

I've wondered what a pair of TC redlines would be like at the front. Has anyone tried a set of TC Aqualines?

[dUg]

Has anyone tried a set of TC Aqualines?

Yep.

http://forum.realsurf.com/forum/viewtop ... 36#p329836

Loved 'em.

[bohdidontsurf]

Has anyone tried a set of TC Aqualines?

Yep.

http://forum.realsurf.com/forum/viewtop ... 36#p329836

Loved 'em.

Yeah I got a set on a quad fish and I reckon they are perfect for the board. I rode the board in well over head (wrong tool for the job for sure) and they clung really nicely to the face. Felt like I was surfing a board much bigger than 5'10. In smaller surf they are drivey but lose. I have never tried them as a thruster, but they work really well as a quad set up. Much better than H2's in my opinion.

[bohdidontsurf]

^ What did you think of the h2's, whats the diff in performance between aqualines and h2's?

Was thinking of a set of h2's with a new board ($950 bonus)but might go with the aqualines now.
Never tried anything else but sf4's with my quad 6'6 and unfortunatley surfs rarely good enough to take out the board yet alone try out new fins..
H2's always caught my eye though.

Does anyone notice a difference with fins for backhand or forehand?
Was thinking on a wide tailed fish etc that are often harder to surf backhand.. it might be nice to drive with a more towed/cant fin on backhand rail...Like h2..But less towed/cant for forehand side..Just a thought

I tried them on a bat tailed quad and didnt like them, felt like they slowed the board down and too much rake for beachies. I think they would work really well in long point waves, but not beachies. The TC aqua's are more upright and move pivotal losening up the board. Go the TC's I say.

[dUg]

^ What did you think of the h2's, whats the diff in performance between aqualines and h2's?

Of all the PC fins, and with the exception of the LB2 fin, the TC Aqualine is probably the closest to a H-2 IMHO. It's a case of of horses for courses I guess, but I can comment on H2 vs TC Aqualine in the same board(s) in 3 fin set up. For me the H-2's seemed to give more speed when bouncing off the foam after a cuttie, and a tiny bit more stability and lift over foamy sections in small surf. Would this translate in a quad? Maybe... but I do wonder about having TWO side fins with that much cant on them - if you had twin H-2 centers it'd be less weird. The Aqualine trailers are like a side fin ( flat with no inside foil, but they are vertical - whereas the front TC Aqualine fins are set at an angle.

It also means that despite what FCS say, Aqualines are NOT a direct ( and might I add, more expensive ) replacement for the older composite TC whitelines. Whitlines are set vertically like the rest of the standard fins.

H-2

TC Aqualine

Old TC Whiteline

[bohdidontsurf]

^ What did you think of the h2's, whats the diff in performance between aqualines and h2's?

Of all the PC fins, and with the exception of the LB2 fin, the TC Aqualine is probably the closest to a H-2 IMHO. It's a case of of horses for courses I guess, but I can comment on H2 vs TC Aqualine in the same board(s) in 3 fin set up. For me the H-2's seemed to give more speed when bouncing off the foam after a cuttie, and a tiny bit more stability and lift over foamy sections in small surf. Would this translate in a quad? Maybe... but I do wonder about having TWO side fins with that much cant on them - if you had twin H-2 centers it'd be less weird. The Aqualine trailers are like a side fin ( flat with no inside foil, but they are vertical - whereas the front TC Aqualine fins are set at an angle.

It also means that despite what FCS say, Aqualines are NOT a direct ( and might I add, more expensive ) replacement for the older composite TC whitelines. Whitlines are set vertically like the rest of the standard fins.

H-2

side_h2.jpg

TC Aqualine

side_tcaqualine.jpg

Old TC Whiteline

side_tcwhiteline.jpg

I had this week off and surfed the same board with H2's as a quad set up in them. Dont get me wrong, they are not totally fcuked, but pretty close. They just dont work as a quad set up IMO. Ever noticed how the H2 quad set up is painted, not the texalium cloth on the thruster set up? Thats because they paint all the seconds silver and sell them as the quad set. Anyway, I will be happily handing them back to the FCS test centre.

[pridmore]

you guys would like the Butterfly fins I am using lately, lessormore has a set too, maybe ask him for some feedback, he has posted some comments on thread called '6 finner'....

[pridmore]

I think there is too much playing around with fins too ( even though I am guilty of it ), dont know if its just quads though...maybe you should get your shaper to decide best fin combo for you and the board and get them glassed in ??? there are so many options and everyone likes something different but when we had no choice we didnt worry so much about them , just got used to what was under our feet and surfed....