Firewire Surfboards

[collnarra]

I think there's a lot of life left in current technology. As I've posted elsewhere, CNC machining and CAD design should have lead to a renaissance in custom board building - but it hasn't.

After having spoken to lots of shapers (everyone from Eric Arakawa to Chilli to Simon Anderson to Warner and Dave Wood) over the last few years, and after having asked them what it is that most customers want, they inevitably respond: fast / manouverable / forgiving / sensitive / strong / light.

Those qualities essentially make up the extremes of a three axis plot of board features.

I'd argue that most customers don't really want a custom board - and most shapers aren't able to deliver a true custom anyway. It's easier for them to offer a range of designs, and then the customer can choose something that more or less fits with the bounds of a design, appeals to them, and has a brand name (which explains the mystifying appearance of boards from Channel Islands on local beaches).

Shapers could keep electronic records of the last board you had from them, and then use that as a basis for your next order. But most don't keep these records except for team members. And if they did keep customer records, what purpose would it serve? Most surfers simply don't care.

There simply aren't that many artisan shapers left. Mark Rabbidge is one, the guy that makes PURE could be another (although I haven't yet gone to visit him). The rest are designers that spec out a range of designs and offer them. There's nothing wrong with that, and most surfers are getting better boards now than they were ten years ago. But whether those boards suit them is another thing altogether....

[bro]

Hawkeye, they majority of people buying surftech wouldn't know where to go to order a custom because they, with exceptions, don't know the surf industry that well. They with exception generally don't surf well (except yourself of course ), hence why they want there board to last so when they bring it out each summer it still looks pretty.
Why would you put durability above performance? Surfing is 100% performance. It's like entering a volvo in a formula one race it will survive the race but it will never win or perform to any standard compared to it's rivals. One board a year is a very cheap price on what we ger back from it. Also, your comments on not getting a custom shaped board that suits your needs even when you order one, well you are riding (from memory) 3 boards that were shaped, never ridden (hence not proven) and then used as plugs to create thousands of identical copies so i would suggest you would be further from that point than any custom board don't you think?

[ric_vidal]

Whether those boards suit them is another thing altogether.

And there’s your answer right there. Nothing to do with construction or the ‘brand’. FireWire will have its early adopters and it’s ‘let’s wait and see’ crowd same as everything else that has been ‘new’.

The biggest difference with some of the newer technologies is the opportunity to try before you buy. This is clearly not possible on a custom board although a lot of shapers will ask you to bring it back if you’re not happy and they’ll make another.

So it comes down to the donkey vote.

The experience and trust that you know what you want/need with a custom is difficult and often a process of refinement. These rails, that rocker, those fins, concave here, etc, it is not an exact science, it’s an unfathomable package that changes as often as the waves we ride.

Being in a position to make boards I can experiment to my hearts content and even after probably 30 years of surfing badly am in a position where I think I’ve arrived at a good combination for ME, until you make something totally different and it’s good too, but for different reasons.

I don’t know where I am going with this so... bring on the FireWire and let the punters decide if it’s the ants pants... yes, now I know where I am going - variety

[collnarra]

Hawkeye, they majority of people buying surftech wouldn't know where to go to order a custom because they, with exceptions, don't know the surf industry that well.

You're onto something there Bro, and it's really an indictment on the custom board building industry. Customer service isn't something that board builders are renowned for (and being told week after week that your board will be done "soon" has its own rustic charm, I guess) and now they're suffering for it.

Many surfers don't know that they can ring up Simon or Brett Warner or whoever else, go see them and order a board from them. And many of the people that do know this are too intimidated to do so.

Shapers could be more explicit about this in their advertising. Heck, they could even come on here and talk about their boards and create some sort of community. But they don't, and that's why small board makers are going to get smaller and smaller, and the true custom board will become a high end thing available only to the well heeled or extremely skilled.

Everyone else can - and most will - content themselves with branded models. Models endorsed by pros mightn't mean much to people here, but someone's buying into it....

[swift]

I cant tell if Taj had a webber sticker on his board!

Is he still sponsored by Greg?

On the same subject, why did Parko leave DHD, is it because Billabong are pushing those boards?

[Hawkeye]

Bro, mate, for most surfers, surfing is NOT all about performance. It's 100% about HAVING FUN.

Most of the customs I've ordered over the years were through my local surf shop. So you'll forgive me for disagreeing on the issue of access.

And no, I wouldn't put durability over performance - because it's not an either/or question! It's a sliding scale around maximising fun per dollar spent. If I had to choose between a board that was 97% there and lasted 18 months and one that was 100% there and fell apart to the point of being unsaleable in 6 months (my usual) I'd go the 97%er.

But if I was racing it , then of course I'd be looking at any extra 0.0002% I could get. But since I'm not competing, and I'm merely competent rather than any good as a surfer, I doubt I'd really notice the extra 3%. Incidentally, that's why I'm happy to be driving an ex-cop Commodore rather than an openwheeler McLaren. It does me well enough for the job, it costs me a fraction of the budget I'd need to run the race car. And it's still fun to drive.

Given that those who compete are less than 2% of the population, you'll pardon me for concluding that your points are fair enough for a certain sector of the surfing population, but don't represent the majority of recreational surfers.

[ric_vidal]

Bro, mate, for most surfers, surfing is NOT all about performance. It's 100% about HAVING FUN.

And no, I wouldn't put durability over performance - because it's not an either/or question! It's a sliding scale around maximising fun per dollar spent.

You’re right BUT you are putting a value on your enjoyment and it may just not add up.

Try this:
• New poly board, custom of course, say $600. Ride for one year sell or trade for $200 = cost per annum $400.
• New Surftech/Tuflite, pop-out of course , say $800. Ride 18 months sell or trade for $200 = cost per annum $400.

Smoke and mirrors maybe you’ve been shopping in the wrong places.

[munch]

• New poly board, custom of course, say $600. Ride for one

month and ... break it stupid paint ....


p.s like youse points lic lacky might be nick knacking them

[wolverine]

I guess the point I was trying to make re: Firewire was that if it is good enough for a pro to ride in a comp, then Firewire must be on to something. Sure, many will say that he's paid to endorse etc, but to my knowledge many board co's don't pay pros the big bucks to ride their boards.

Plus, pros tend to be pretty conservative in the gear they ride in comps. Just look how many stick with glass-on fins. I would also be interested to know how many of the top pros are riding PU boards vs Surftech vs Salomon vs other in WCT events?

If the articles posted re: Firewire are right, then many 'CT pros are lining up to get their hands on a FW board.

[Hawkeye]

You’re right BUT you are putting a value on your enjoyment and it may just not add up.

Try this:
• New poly board, custom of course, say $600. Ride for one year sell or trade for $200 = cost per annum $400.
• New Surftech/Tuflite, pop-out of course , say $800. Ride 18 months sell or trade for $200 = cost per annum $400.

Smoke and mirrors maybe you’ve been shopping in the wrong places.

For me, the numbers are more like:

Poly board: $600 sell 6 months $200 = $800pa per board pa

Tuflite: $700 sell 2 years $200 = $250pa per board pa

The kicker is not having to go cap-in-hand to the missus having to justify I NEED a new board every 6 months. We're keeping our budget tight because we have some goals we want to hit, and I need to lead by example. :?

Of course, when I get around to trying my own hand at shaping, I'll be using polyester and not EPS/Epoxy.

[ric_vidal]

month and ... break it stupid paint ....

You’re starting to sound like wanto with his board count!

Come on, let’s hear it... it’s isn’t [just] the paint. What are you riding, what dimensions and how, or maybe the question should be, are they glassed? Did you expect it to break from what you subjected it to? Some people I think believe breaking boards is some weird heroic act when it could be avoided with a bit of thought there’s the problem.

I’ve broken 3 boards in over 30 years, and one I expected to as it was on it’s last legs and I didn’t choose to fix it.

Maybe you could get one of Hawkeye’s discards after say 36 months

[ric_vidal]

The kicker is not having to go cap-in-hand to the missus having to justify I NEED a new board every 6 months.

Ah ha, since when has surfing got anything to do with having permission from said better half? She should be encouraging you for the benefit of both you AND THE FAMILY.

Even with your dubious figures of $800 pa, or $2.20 per day, less than the cost of a coffee [skinny latté ], don’t tell you take your lunch to work and won’t spring for a drink! Plan to have a life now, tomorrow may never come...

No offence intended Hawkeye, you know I’m just messin’ with your mind :?

[PeteW]

An academic view of how markets work, including surf industry markets, might help to make sense of the future surfboard market. The first thing we know is that technology does not provide a long term future on its own. What makes Surftech so strong is its use of big name shapers. Firewire will not be able to protect its technology advantage for very long. For one thing the Chinese have very different views on patent protection and secondly Surftech is not going to sit on their hands. So competition will come quickly to Firewire.

The second thing to think about is that all markets tend to split into low end, ie cheap, and premium, yes very expensive. Surfboard market is already showing this pattern, with the Asian boards and superpremiums from Dick Brewer or wood boards from people like Wegner. The most dangerous place to be is in the middle. Most companies use brands to compete at the high end or at the low end. Quickripbong obviously do this in the clothing market at the high end, Golden Breed and others at the low end, along with cheap unbranded Tshirts.

Clearly with the Bong boys Firewire will be trying to brand themselves upmarket. But they will face the same battle that the big clothing brands face, a neverending race to stay up there. Other brands will be above them in the market, a bunch of superpremiums, as Nick C has suggested. We can even go further and look at the make up of the customer bases for these brands, and no prizes for guessing that old blokes will be in the superpremium market (as we get older brands become less influential and we even rebel against the big brands aimed at the younger audience) and all that Bong branding skill will be pointing Firewire boards as premiums for a younger audience.

So after all this analysis crap, the marketing professor will predict that you don’t want to be a board maker in the mid market. Be cheap, be not quite so cheap with a brand, be upmarket with very strong brand, or be superpremium. Unfortunately lots of board makers are going to be caught in the no-man’s land.

[munch]

Come on, let’s hear it... it’s isn’t [just] the paint.

What are you riding, what dimensions and how, or maybe the question should be, are they glassed?

most of the boards I've ridden have been glassed well all really

Did you expect it to break from what you subjected it to?

yes i ride waves and they break boards ....

Some people I think believe breaking boards is some weird heroic act when it could be avoided with a bit of thought there’s the problem.

What not riding waves :? ... well actually here's the last three:
• southy late take stuffed it and dived ... ping
• rockies beautiful deep backhand barrel which dried up so I bailed, it went over with the lip ... ping and then was subjected to being called a pounce by twiggy cause I didn't ride over the dry bit
• little narra, really small wave about waste high pulled into little tube ... ping ... but I did have a punt the wave before and landed on the tail with me but ... so that probably did it


me problem is if a board goes really well, I try things on it which eventually cause it to break ... the board I have at the moment goes really well in the barrel and pretty well piss poor ever where else so I'm not doing anything "heroic" on it (well except for making some backdoor-whiteout-foamballs ) and it's also go a nice glass job on it ... think it's 6+4x4 and it dents when it dings ... as apposed to cracking :?

[munch]

Ah ha, since when has surfing got anything to do with having permission from said better half? She should be encouraging you for the benefit of both you AND THE FAMILY.

thought youse were meant to be in indo right about now ... now I'm trying to think why not .... thats right youse couldn't convince the missus ... hey me memory ain't that bad after all

[ric_vidal]

Unfortunately lots of board makers are going to be caught in the no-man’s land.

I got caught in no-mans on Saturday! Too much time out of the water me thinks!

Good appraisal Pete, I think the Firewire board, because of their obvious connections with the pros are going to work from the top down and build their credability that way, something Surftech and Salomon basically failed to do or perhaps in the case of Surftech never wanted to do. It will be a premium priced item from what has been said, it has it written all over it.

For people with a few boards in their quiver, that could represent some serious bucks to go Firewire and it would have to be a measured purchase, so I guess it comes back to Hawkeye’s value concept and at the end of the day will they be X% better.

[Nick Carroll]

Reckon you're right PeteW in the sense that a study of the global surfboard market in the past 10 years would pretty much cover every base you'd wanna cover in an economics post-grad thing.

One primary item would be the essential weakness of a monopoly. Clark Foam in the USA had an effective monopoly on the market, and behaved precisely as you'd expect -- provided an OK service, cut nobody any deals, discliplined anyone who looked like stepping out of line. And refused to acknowledge the existence of the secondary market: ie the buyers of surfboards.

Clark prevented its customers (the boardmakers) from innovating with materials. They essentially remained Clark's servants. None were able to grow significantly beyond a regional market and thus could never challenge Clark's monopoly. It took an outside agent - Randy French of SurfTech - to disrupt the monopoly relationship by offering a product to the secondary market that fit their needs. Only then was the weakness of the monopoly, its lack of ability to compete, exposed.

As was the human element beneath all economic activity. Gordon Clark quit because he knew he'd never have control over the market ever again. He quit on the spot using excuses (the environmental law of CA) that have since been proven to be nonsense by a number of new PU foam-makers who sprang up in his wake. In Aussie terms, he did a very human thing: he spat the dummy.

Monopolies look good to competitors in a market, but they always fall apart in the end.

[PeteW]

You are right Nick monopolies only benefit the party for a relatively short period of time. Clark's dummy spit was clearly because he saw that his days of ruling the board scape were over. And a good thing too!

Outsiders tend to be the one's to truly disrupt the market, as Randy French did with Surftech. Interestingly Firewire and others are now reinforcing the Surftech type of board market. Firewire may be a step up in surfboard design and performance, but it is still just a step up from what we know. Surftech was a new type of product altogether, at least in a production sense.

So the real question is what will be the really disruptive surfboard technology? The iPod in the world when only portable CD players existed? Will it come from someone outside of the surf industry altogether? Someone who just looks at boards with none of the baggage of years of surfing. Or someone who is already an outsider but understands what a board is about?