I had a fun early surf this morning but where I was surfing is normally where the flags would be during the day. Towards 6.30 it was getting crowded with swimmers who were placed halfway down the line and weren't keen to move even when you were headed straight for them.
I tend not to deviate my chosen line and make them move but in todays litigious society what happens if I hit one. Apart from them going 'ouch!' is all fair between surfers and swimmers when there are no flags up?
Hitting swimmers
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I am going to disagree with you people....
How can you claim catching one wave or a session is more important than another persons wellbeing and health especially as a 6ft board can do some serious damage. Yeah its annoying but the beach is to be shared by everyone... and just cause you are a surfer doesn't give you more preference over a piece of sand. If their are flags up, then why not pull off the wave and tell them to swim between the flags for their own safety etc and thats its super dangerous to swim next to surfers...
But I think in legal senses you'd be fucked if you hit him/her...
My question is, is it a law to have to swim between the flags or just a suggestion? Anyone know the legal terms..?
How can you claim catching one wave or a session is more important than another persons wellbeing and health especially as a 6ft board can do some serious damage. Yeah its annoying but the beach is to be shared by everyone... and just cause you are a surfer doesn't give you more preference over a piece of sand. If their are flags up, then why not pull off the wave and tell them to swim between the flags for their own safety etc and thats its super dangerous to swim next to surfers...
But I think in legal senses you'd be fucked if you hit him/her...
My question is, is it a law to have to swim between the flags or just a suggestion? Anyone know the legal terms..?
We've covered this before, it is not law. If you wanna swim in a rip, you can. The clubbies can just point out that it is not overly smart and you should go between the flags.Bear wrote:I am going to disagree with you people....
How can you claim catching one wave or a session is more important than another persons wellbeing and health especially as a 6ft board can do some serious damage. Yeah its annoying but the beach is to be shared by everyone... and just cause you are a surfer doesn't give you more preference over a piece of sand. If their are flags up, then why not pull off the wave and tell them to swim between the flags for their own safety etc and thats its super dangerous to swim next to surfers...
But I think in legal senses you'd be **** if you hit him/her...
My question is, is it a law to have to swim between the flags or just a suggestion? Anyone know the legal terms..?
I think someone would be hard pressed to blame you from a legal point of view if you ran them down in the water when they are not between the flags. It wouldn't stand up in any court.
Now if you deliberatly ran em over and said "suck shite, you deserved it", that would be a different matter. It all comes down to intent.
I say swimmer beware. I can't surf between the flags, so don't swim out of the flags. I'm not going to miss a section to avoid them.
I agree Bear.
Considering the surf is small slop, the water is warmish and it is summer (almost), there is guaranteed to be quite a few swimmers about. When the surf is larger they are not going to be an issue.
It might be fine and cool to profess to all your mates that you don’t give way to swimmers ever and are prepared to run them over. But it may be a tad embarrassing running into the wrong swimmer on purpose who happens to violently object and proceeds to smash your board into two over your head whilst giving you a slapping and a dunkin for good measure.
Considering the surf is small slop, the water is warmish and it is summer (almost), there is guaranteed to be quite a few swimmers about. When the surf is larger they are not going to be an issue.
It might be fine and cool to profess to all your mates that you don’t give way to swimmers ever and are prepared to run them over. But it may be a tad embarrassing running into the wrong swimmer on purpose who happens to violently object and proceeds to smash your board into two over your head whilst giving you a slapping and a dunkin for good measure.
Just try and avoid them as best you can, you don't own the place.Damien wrote:I agree Bear.
It might be fine and cool to profess to all your mates that you don’t give way to swimmers ever and are prepared to run them over. But it may be a tad embarrassing running into the wrong swimmer on purpose who happens to violently object and proceeds to smash your board into two over your head whilst giving you a slapping and a dunkin for good measure.
I'd personally break anyones skull that purposely ran over a member of my family on a surfboard and then turned around and abused them for getting in "their way"
Hey Clay,
If you were surfing at Manly where I was at that time with the grumpy old men, I understand what you are saying. Every wave I caught they made no attempt to move, and when I started doing a cutback I got such a glare from a man just behind me that I quickly made it into a turn and kept going.
Both parties should try to avoid collision. Not rely on the other. If I'm ever pushing some friends onto waves when they're learning to surf and a surfer is on a wave, I dive down. Why? Becuase I'm taking my own measures to look after my safety. Because even the best surfer can lose balance, or kook a turn that was meant to avoid someone.
If I jay walk accross a road, if a car suddenly comes around the corner, I don't just stand there (even though pedestrians have right of way). I run. Same should apply in the water.
Those grumpy old men were yelling at 6:35 that the flags were up and the surfers had to move. I got out to the beach to check (cos I couldn't see due to the mist) and they weren't up. When I got out at 7:10, they were just being put up.
It would be difficult to prove that you were in the wrong if you collided with a swimmer outside tha flagged area (unless you made threats to do it and people heard you, then you did run them over)...
HOWEVER that being said, I don't want any precendents occuring that open up this to litigation - because it just might backfire on surfers. So regardless of weather they are pests or not, we should really try hard to avoid running swimmers down, no matter how cocky they are.
If you were surfing at Manly where I was at that time with the grumpy old men, I understand what you are saying. Every wave I caught they made no attempt to move, and when I started doing a cutback I got such a glare from a man just behind me that I quickly made it into a turn and kept going.
Both parties should try to avoid collision. Not rely on the other. If I'm ever pushing some friends onto waves when they're learning to surf and a surfer is on a wave, I dive down. Why? Becuase I'm taking my own measures to look after my safety. Because even the best surfer can lose balance, or kook a turn that was meant to avoid someone.
If I jay walk accross a road, if a car suddenly comes around the corner, I don't just stand there (even though pedestrians have right of way). I run. Same should apply in the water.
Those grumpy old men were yelling at 6:35 that the flags were up and the surfers had to move. I got out to the beach to check (cos I couldn't see due to the mist) and they weren't up. When I got out at 7:10, they were just being put up.
It would be difficult to prove that you were in the wrong if you collided with a swimmer outside tha flagged area (unless you made threats to do it and people heard you, then you did run them over)...
HOWEVER that being said, I don't want any precendents occuring that open up this to litigation - because it just might backfire on surfers. So regardless of weather they are pests or not, we should really try hard to avoid running swimmers down, no matter how cocky they are.
My understanding of the law is this. I'm not a lawyer so feel free to disagree:-
1. If you run a swimmer down intentionally it involves a criminal act and the police can charge you in a criminal court for offences including assault,GBH,murder or manslaughter. Intent would be determined based on the facts of the case. Facts can be determined from items such as witnesses statements and photographs.
2. If you run down a swimmer accidentally you can be sued in a civil court for damages. The onus of proof in a civil case is less for the plaintiff eg. consider OJ Simpson's two cases, one criminal, one civil - criminal case failed, civil case succeeded.
3. The chances of losing your case are greater if you do this in a flagged area, more so if the clubbies have clearly warned you to move.
4. Contributory negligence by the swimmer is also considered in a civil case for damages eg. if the swimmer intentionally blocks your way they can be construed as partly to blame for the damage.
5. The lifesavers are unlikely to be sued if a swimmer drowns while swimming outside the flags.
6. If someone drowns while swimming between the flags a lifesaver has some indemnity from being sued, particularly considering that the job they do is voluntary. However they would not be excused from gross negligence or ignoring someone in peril when to try to save them would involve limited risk on their behalf.
Again, I'm not a clubbie so one may like to comment on points 5 and 6.
1. If you run a swimmer down intentionally it involves a criminal act and the police can charge you in a criminal court for offences including assault,GBH,murder or manslaughter. Intent would be determined based on the facts of the case. Facts can be determined from items such as witnesses statements and photographs.
2. If you run down a swimmer accidentally you can be sued in a civil court for damages. The onus of proof in a civil case is less for the plaintiff eg. consider OJ Simpson's two cases, one criminal, one civil - criminal case failed, civil case succeeded.
3. The chances of losing your case are greater if you do this in a flagged area, more so if the clubbies have clearly warned you to move.
4. Contributory negligence by the swimmer is also considered in a civil case for damages eg. if the swimmer intentionally blocks your way they can be construed as partly to blame for the damage.
5. The lifesavers are unlikely to be sued if a swimmer drowns while swimming outside the flags.
6. If someone drowns while swimming between the flags a lifesaver has some indemnity from being sued, particularly considering that the job they do is voluntary. However they would not be excused from gross negligence or ignoring someone in peril when to try to save them would involve limited risk on their behalf.
Again, I'm not a clubbie so one may like to comment on points 5 and 6.
I'm changing tack. If you were out at South Steyne this morning, you've lost the plot. It was lucky to be 1/2 a foot.clay wrote:Girl grom, It was South Steyne this morning... sorry for the drop in by the way.
I had to go to work anyway but flags don't go up till 7am so at least you'll know for next time.
There was a decision a few years ago in which a body surfer sued the local council following an injury sustained after being run over by a surfer. Body basher was out the back of Tama. The flags were up that day and board riders weren’t supposed to be in the area. Body basher dropped in on a surfer, who ran straight over his neck (ouch). Body basher sued the Council alleging the clubbies failed to take adequate measures to protect him. He was successful. The board rider, of course, did a runner and no findings were made against him.
So as far as my research has thrown up, I can’t find any incidents of a swimmer successfully suing a surfer. However, the comments above regarding intent aren't necessary correct - if an accident was 'reasonably foreseeable' it doesn't matter that you might not have intended to fin gouge that prick that just dropped in on you...
So as far as my research has thrown up, I can’t find any incidents of a swimmer successfully suing a surfer. However, the comments above regarding intent aren't necessary correct - if an accident was 'reasonably foreseeable' it doesn't matter that you might not have intended to fin gouge that prick that just dropped in on you...
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Nick Carroll
- Huey's Right Hand
- Posts: 26515
- Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:29 am
- Location: Newport Beach
I can't believe some of you guys. Run over a swimmer. Yeah right. They're human beings just like you, brainiacs. The modern surfboard can kill a human.
A good lawyer might well make you pay for that in court. They might well refer to many years of maritime law concerning watercraft, responsibility for said craft, etc. What would your argument be? "I lost control"? That wouldn't cut it for a second. "The swimmer got in front of me"? Sorry, you're the one on the craft travelling at speed. "I was annoyed by the swimmer's presence in my surfing line"? Beyond pathetic.
You'd be as morally -- and almost as legally -- culpable as someone in a car or on a bike who deliberately ran over a pedestrian.
A good lawyer might well make you pay for that in court. They might well refer to many years of maritime law concerning watercraft, responsibility for said craft, etc. What would your argument be? "I lost control"? That wouldn't cut it for a second. "The swimmer got in front of me"? Sorry, you're the one on the craft travelling at speed. "I was annoyed by the swimmer's presence in my surfing line"? Beyond pathetic.
You'd be as morally -- and almost as legally -- culpable as someone in a car or on a bike who deliberately ran over a pedestrian.
Fair comment Nick, my aim is to have as much fun as possible when I'm out there. But I still think the swimmers should take some responsibility for their own safety... Today some would watch you surf towards them and duck underneath you or turn around and try and body surf the shoulder and generally assume that I have complete mastery of my craft and will not hit them. Whilst I'm fairly competent on a board, I catch a rail just like most people from time to time.
Suppose it's got to be a two-way street then.
Damn swimmers are always standing like stunned mullets at North Cronulla. Whilst it's not a big thing to lose one wave to that, when it happens repeatedly it gets a little annoying. The vast majority of the guys that want to body surf a bit are just going to head straight into shore, so they can bunch up a little and not spread out as much as they do, which effectively takes every section available in that area. The wall doesn't always work when its small and sometimes its a pain in the ass to paddle up north of the wall.
Damn swimmers are always standing like stunned mullets at North Cronulla. Whilst it's not a big thing to lose one wave to that, when it happens repeatedly it gets a little annoying. The vast majority of the guys that want to body surf a bit are just going to head straight into shore, so they can bunch up a little and not spread out as much as they do, which effectively takes every section available in that area. The wall doesn't always work when its small and sometimes its a pain in the ass to paddle up north of the wall.
I'm gonna disagree with you here Nick. The craft is not powered as such so in court it probably wouldn't hold too much. If it's on a patrolled beach during the time the flags are up (being we're talking the off season here), and someone ignorethe wanings to remain within the flags, and they get hit, they have no recourse what-so-ever. It's possible someone may try a civil case and the day that is successful will be the last day boards will be allowed on public beaches. I say this because if litigation was succesful against a surfer, then one against the council would surely soon follow.
I had a couple of mental giants in front of me last week tossing a tennis ball around. I pulled off a couple of times, I went a couple of times, I warned them, so next wave the tennis ball was thrown at my head. Like I said - mental giants - you're on a 9'+ board and that may have caused me to accidentally fall off at full speed on the face of the wave 5' from someones head. I'm sure you could hear the "crack" sound at Parramatta as the board struck her head. Not my fault, they should have listened to the announcement 4 mins earlier asking them to leave the area.
I had a couple of mental giants in front of me last week tossing a tennis ball around. I pulled off a couple of times, I went a couple of times, I warned them, so next wave the tennis ball was thrown at my head. Like I said - mental giants - you're on a 9'+ board and that may have caused me to accidentally fall off at full speed on the face of the wave 5' from someones head. I'm sure you could hear the "crack" sound at Parramatta as the board struck her head. Not my fault, they should have listened to the announcement 4 mins earlier asking them to leave the area.
Blowin up about surf schools!
Now pissed off about swimmers!
Think some of you people are playing the man and not the ball. That or your just looking for something to get indignant about. I swear, you blokes are gonna be the crankiest, sour-arse, letter-writing geriatrics once your teeth start falling out. Abe Simpson's got nothing on you wingeing bastards.
Geez, I live on a city beach that has two surf schools and, who knows how many swimmers, and neither myself, nor anyone I know have had hassles with either. Bloody hell....sometimes I've been known to don the budgies and take a dip and I've not had hassles with surfers.
Lighten up crazy people!
Now pissed off about swimmers!
Think some of you people are playing the man and not the ball. That or your just looking for something to get indignant about. I swear, you blokes are gonna be the crankiest, sour-arse, letter-writing geriatrics once your teeth start falling out. Abe Simpson's got nothing on you wingeing bastards.
Geez, I live on a city beach that has two surf schools and, who knows how many swimmers, and neither myself, nor anyone I know have had hassles with either. Bloody hell....sometimes I've been known to don the budgies and take a dip and I've not had hassles with surfers.
Lighten up crazy people!
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