Just general surfing stuff

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Davros
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by Davros » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:14 am

Architects don't build houses (thank god). Can you design a great board without shaping it by hand?

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steve shearer
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by steve shearer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:17 am

I observe.
\

And the last great design breakthrough in terms of the modern shortboard: the Modern Planing Hull from Dan Thomson, was entirely an imaginative (penny drop moment of inspiration) moment coupled with a white hot burst of hand shaping creativity.

I haven't seen any equivalent creativity come from the CAD process.
Which is not to say it couldn't happen, just that it is much less likely.
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offshore1
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by offshore1 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:34 am

steve shearer wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:08 am
I think there is an argument to made, that in terms of understanding the compound curves of a surfboard at a visceral level, a solid foundation in handshaping may be valuable.

I really can't see any design breakthroughs that haven't come about from that deep visceral understanding of compound curves and how they relate to a planing hull.

Looking at lines on a screen simply doesn't engage enough of the sensory-motor part of the brain with the imaginative regions of the frontal cortex and thalamus.
In short, a liberal dose of Dionysian hand jive body torque.
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by crabmeat thompson » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:52 am

Nick Carroll wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:50 am
crabmeat thompson wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:26 am
i think crank's point is a valid one.

is a shaper who's never delved into the art and intricacies of hand shaping, really a shaper?

there's shapers here on the gold coast not worth a pinch of shit. their Dad bought them a CAD machine and they go around copying what works from the real shapers and selling them off as their own.

it's about learning the craft of hand-shaping before graduating to the CAD machine.
Really? Who are they? The shapers on the Gold Coast whose parents bought them a machine cutter?
i've said too much already. one has failed miserably and left a whole bunch of debt and broken friendships behind. the other you would know pretty well too. although you would know him more as a sales rep, not a shaper.

but like i said, i've said too much here already.


I surfed with an excellent hand shaper on the weekend in pumping beachies. been hand shaping for 31 years and still competes on the masters series. his take on machine cut boards is really fresh in my memory. and re-reading what i said before, i'm not knocking machine shapers who are coming up with their own boards and designs like CC.

i was referring to the ones who find it easy to go get a DHD off the rack that they know works, and copy it and rebrand it as their own. they were the peeps I was talking about.
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foamy
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by foamy » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:23 am

Of course, CC has a very strong hand shaping background and still gets out the tools occasionally I think.

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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by Legion » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:32 pm

Bramwell, El "Trust Fund" Rancho is not going to take this sniping behind his back very well indeed. His asymmetrical wonky single stands equal to CC or any other shaper's top shapes.

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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by crabmeat thompson » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:50 pm

I was being sincere. I love el wonko's shapes!
Drailed wrote:Sound like a load of cunts to me Trev.

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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by godsavethequeen » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:55 pm

I would say it's too early to tell. Surfboards essentially conform to the norm (surfers are a conservative bunch, no?) and anything that doesn't riff on received wisdom is treated with the utmost suspicion (think meyerhoffer). CAD is obviously the better approach, but shapers who use it battle against nostalgia and misplaced contempt, so I don't reckon we'll get to properly see the benefits for half a generation or so

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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by Davros » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:03 pm

The "sales line" for CAD is that because the board is on file we can tweak the next one. Probably pretty handy in reality.

So many things to think about with hand shaped customs. Unless you are a dialled in surfer, dialled into your boards and the shaper it's difficult to get the most out of that package.

Can be easier to log onto Boardcave and get a proven design with matching volume that will support your ability. Maybe I'm selling the custom short for the average Jo.

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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by Nick Carroll » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:23 pm

godsavethequeen wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:55 pm
I would say it's too early to tell. Surfboards essentially conform to the norm (surfers are a conservative bunch, no?) and anything that doesn't riff on received wisdom is treated with the utmost suspicion (think meyerhoffer). CAD is obviously the better approach, but shapers who use it battle against nostalgia and misplaced contempt, so I don't reckon we'll get to properly see the benefits for half a generation or so
are you serious gstq, every top shaper from Rawson/Simon A/MC/whomever use CAD cutting almost exclusively. 3/4 of my boards are CAD cut including some crazy boards that if they'd been hand shaped, would almost certainly have sucked. I think that argument is so over.

As far as innovation is concerned, shearer I think the main reason most leaps in design have been through handshaping isn't necessarily because of the visceral contact with foam etc, but because in the period when most design leaps have occurred, there wasn't any (or much) CAD around. Shapers had to hand cut their ideas, they had no choice. Look at other areas of design, those America's Cup super craft for example, they weren't hand shaped, they were designed on supercomputers, and they do things other boats have never been able to do. Just because the most significant thing CAD in surfboards has done so far is to vastly improve the accuracy and consistency of global surfboard design, is no prediction of its potential into the future.

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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by steve shearer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:26 pm

godsavethequeen wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:55 pm
. Surfboards essentially conform to the norm (surfers are a conservative bunch, no?) and anything that doesn't riff on received wisdom is treated with the utmost suspicion (think meyerhoffer). CAD is obviously the better approach, but shapers who use it battle against nostalgia and misplaced contempt, so I don't reckon we'll get to properly see the benefits for half a generation or so
Nah.
Dan Thomson smashed all that with the Firewire versions of his shapes.

They are radically different and they are the best selling surfboards in the world.

And CAD shapes, machine shapes are 99-100% of the boards in surf shops so there's no battle, no misplaced contempt.

The market has decided, and it has given a resounding thumbs up.


Think you'll find if you dig deep enough into the high tech world of yachting, that there is a low tech version built in the backyard before the computer comes in.
Finest example the Ben Lexcen winged keel.
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by godsavethequeen » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:36 pm

Bollocks are they radically different. They started out quite different, granted, but now they're regressing back towards being surfboard shaped.

This thread has already proven that the battle is far from over. Sure, all the top guys use CAD but it's only accepted because of their handshaping heritage. As I say, in half a generation when some of the bullshit clears, maybe some proper experimentation will occur

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steve shearer
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by steve shearer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:46 pm

Huh?

I'm not sure what the hell you are saying there.

That Tomo's Modern Planing Hulls aren't radically different from either a: the modern pointy nosed shortboard

or b: all the flavours of pure retro designs from Fish to MId-lengths. ?

Yes, the design is evolving towards more natural looking curves but still, the Omni is a radically different board to what was an acceptable shortboard 5 years ago.


As for the other point: that CAD design is somehow being held back by a few malcontents having a bullshitt session on a surf forum...........

I think CAD design is inherently more conservative and less radical than handshaping because it uses less of the available potential of a human being to design something.


CAD has been in surfboard design for what, 20 years now? 30?
And completely dominant for at least 10 as a method of production.

I have trouble believing the argument that we haven't seen it's potential because it hasn't been here long enough.

CAD gave us the Hypto Krypto.

Handshaping gave us the Modern Planing Hull.
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by tootr » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:50 pm

Ergo, better boards are being made for lower intermediates, thru to very advanced, to push their skill levels.
And shapers save their backs and lungs.

Win- win.
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steve shearer
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by steve shearer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:57 pm

Agreed, I'm not saying CAD doesn't produce consistently higher quality surfboards.

Just that it isn't now, and may never be, as responsible for design progression, breakthroughs etc etc as hand shaping is/was.
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tootr
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by tootr » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:02 pm

Here's a poser.
Maybe it will take extremely consistent, mechanical, quality waves, to make the next design breakthrough?
And then we can design a robot to surf it?
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steve shearer
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by steve shearer » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:26 pm

then we will be designing for extremely consistent, mechanical waves.


Whether that translates into more real world conditions is the key question.

I suspect board design for wavepools will very quickly eliminate the need for paddling.
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Cranked
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Re: Just general surfing stuff

Post by Cranked » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:36 pm

Here's Mr J Banks on CAD verses hand shaping: "If you are hand shaping you can't put the foam back on"
“I don’t necessarily agree with everything I say ”— Marshall McLuhan

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