Australia vs. USA Culture

[crabmeat thompson]

Wenn ich Kultur höre ... entsichere ich meinen Browning!"

Colt .45 ... Now that's a gun.

[steve shearer]

... And it was directly aimed at shearer who can't seem to identify a contrast of Island culture to Australian culture and the gulf that lies between.

What the hell are you on Braithy?
Daytura?

You said Aus had NO culture except making a cnut of ourselves on the piss.

I was responding to that patently fallacious statement.

I grew up on a South Pacific Island (Bribie...fcuking oath it is).....and given half a chance I'll rhapsodize and bore the shitt out of anyone about how this century is the Pacific century and we should be looking to Island cultures.
Of course I see the difference between the 2 cultures.

Glad you aren't a lawyer, you get your arguments mighty mixed up.

[crabmeat thompson]

You said Aus had NO culture except making a cnut of ourselves on the piss.

Don't forget, we are a country with a high volume of racists.

I said we are by and large uncultured when it comes to family values, morals, tradition and most importantly the lack of respect we are taught/ able to teach.

You came back with we're cultured in science and sports etc ...

Sure culture can mean science, arts and sport ... But it was not the context I was referring to, and I found it hard to fathom that you'd just been to tahiti and these were the only examples of australian culture you could come up with. You kinda proved my point for me.

[crabmeat thompson]

Your holding the US up as a paragon of racial tolerance and open minded thinking? Because you hung out with a bunch of dweebs on a christian basketball camp?

Are you smoking crack?

Fcuk, you're dumb.

[steve shearer]

Don't forget, we are a country with a high volume of racists.

Says you.

Take a look at your beloved US and see what is happening there wrt to the Mexican situation if you want naked, violent racism.

have a look at Europe while your there, in particular good old Cultured France where they are rounding up Romanian gypsies by Govt Decree and shipping them out of the country.
The whole of Europe is becoming fractured by an uprising of popular and violent xenophobia and racism.

Culture is a term than encompasses far more than family values and tradition.
Why would I compare your narrow definition of culture(in respect to Aus) with that of Tahiti?
I love the South Pacific culture but it has it's limitations as well.

[crabmeat thompson]

Shearer. Why is it when someone says something about something or someone beloved to them, their immediate reaction is to point the finger elsewhere?

There is nothing to me beloved about America other than their MLB baseball. And they sure as hell have their problems. All I did was illustrate a point about a bunch of college baseball players and coaches etc who have the assumption (rightfully or wrongfully, they have it) that Australia is a racist country against Aboriginals, Asians, Indians etc due to what they're fed through their media.

When asked about Australian culture, you rattle off 8 names, one of which would not wish to be involved with white Australian 'culture' on any level. And I have a narrow definition of culture?

Pot, meet kettle.

[alakaboo]

thankyou for the clarification.
now, about this bit:

Mostly college kids, some teachers and coaches too. We were on a baseball tour, played in Florida, Arizona and Texas. Most of the guys were early 20's late teens, educated and some were well travelled, some weren't.

I wonder how many of those students had mexican, dominican or cuban housekeepers or gardeners in the family home? how did their parents treat the hired help?
how indicative were their views of the third of the US population that is hispanic, black or asian?
when i was applying for hospitality and cleaning jobs in oregon, i was regularly told: "that's a mexican job, you won't enjoy it. besides, the supervisor doesn't speak english".

i share your shame whenever i hear reports of racism, but it's a step too far to leap from that to a condemnation of an entire nation. or even as evidence of a higher ideal. in fact any broad brush statements about the culture of a nation will be just that. you're commenting on your experiences and observations, no doubt they'll differ from everyone elses. you can't summarise a culture, you experience it. the definition you posted was from anthopology; cultural anthropology places a strong emphasis on immersing yourself in the culture you are studying, and was born of the study of smaller groups, e.g. tribes. outsiders can make observations, but they'll be tainted by their own cultural and ideological lens.
You've obviously realised this yourself:

Some of the things I typed about are very geographically relevant. Camooweal is a long way from Flinders st. Both in distance and racial tolerance.

i'm sorry for your personal experiences of racism, and unfortunately it's not unique. i've had relationships with foreign girlfriends break up through the strain of racial intolerance, and a friend has just left the gold coast due to their partner being sick of being the one that stand out from the crowd.

none of what i wrote indicated that i thought Australians weren't racist, just pointing out that some of the traditional ideals you seem to hold dear are often linked to homogenous insular cultures themselves.

if you're going to rail against the racism in Qld, then understand where it comes from. fear of the unknown, lack of exposure. as oldman said, racism is often linked to education (or the lack of it). in the case of universities in the major cities, there is also much greater exposure to other cultures. as Trev said, time changes perception and ultimately it should be for the better. i've done a lot of work in regional Qld, and nearly every town has a chinese restaurant. that wouldn't have been the case a few decades ago...

there's a lot of mention of alcohol in this thread. i'd just point out that there's nothing dissolved in alcohol that makes you into a racist f#$kwit or a deadbeat dad, that has to be some inherent part of your makeup.
while i abhor the types of behaviour that you mention, i'm quite capable of drinking myself into a blissful stupor without carrying on like a pork chop.

[oldman]

I was referring to how the Hawaiians have Ohana or even the Aloha spirit ...

The hawaiians also have the habit of referring to the white man as 'haoles'.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this ain't a term of respect.

Now you might refer to their history and reason away why it is that they are like this, and your story may have historical resonance, but it doesn't excuse what looks an awful lot like racism to me.

I have never quite got my head around what the term culture means, and after many years I worked out that it was because it is used by different people at different times in different ways to mean exactly what they wanted it to mean, invariably to compare their 'culture' against 'the other'.

I suspect 'culture' is just a high minded way of being racist, of rejecting 'the other'.

Goebbels (?) was right.

[crabmeat thompson]

I'll ignore your extremely dumb reply and pathetic attack on me.

First up. Don't even start with the moral high ground approach.

If there's one thing I hate more than racists, It's a whiny fucking ethnic slur goes here.

You live in a well.

I think probably the one defining characteristic of Australian culture is our easy going and open nature. Now I know that sounds a bit twee closer to something you might hear on Getaway, but its true. Any visitor or immigrant will tell you, the oppressive feeling of old world culture and tradition that is present in nearly every other society is not present in Australia, and I dare say New Zealand as well.

This feeling of openness is the perfect breeding ground for a vibrant and multi faceted modern culture. The challenge lies is in marrying with the worlds oldest living culture. Forget trying to impress or live up to the expectations of The US. They started out as the first modern culture, kings of the new world. They certainly have given us a lot and will continue to do so. God knows they won the 2nd world war. That was their climax, and im afraid they're on the downward slope now.

The US ' biggest problem has always been their origins. Inexorably tied to religious fundamentalism. Their forward looking culture has always battled with the dark side. Cloaking itself in a facade of goodness and light. Christian fundamentalism in all its forms has fostered racism, violence and intolerance. The US has failed because of its inability to shrug off the last vestige of its old world past. It is intriguing that link to the old world, Christian fundamentalism has been able to mold itself and adapt to the real world. It has not only accepted capitalism with open arms but made a comfy seat for it next to god.

This ability to adapt and evolve is precisely how a modern world culture would act. It is unfortunate and a little bit ironic it will prove the downfall for the worlds first great modern culture.

When you're not trolling or fishing for high fives from the rest of the numbnuts parade who like to leach off your nutsack, you're an intelligent, insightful guy capable of changing people's - like mine - views and broadening our mind. And for someone as stubborn and single minded like me to say that, it's a big wrap.

This feeling of openness is the perfect breeding ground for a vibrant and multi faceted modern culture. The challenge lies is in marrying with the worlds oldest living culture.

I don't argue this one bit. The potential is certainly there for Australia to become a culturally rich and progressive nation. The parts are in place right now.

But.

I have little faith when I look around me at Uni, or on the streets or in the ocean that if this is the generation we relying on to execute a multi faceted, tolerant modern culture we are all in deep shit. As a sweeping generalisation, the next generation seems self serving, driven by getting shit-faced, void of respect and looking for the easiest way out.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm really wrong.

[Yuke Hunt]

I love a cultured country … like soya milk … yogurt and goats cheese
so please done label racism like some abhorrent for of disease
all animals are racist … take dogs n cats n birds n fleas
the ku klux klan took it a step to far … but so did the Chinese

Ok enough of that dribble … Now ... Braithy … Braithy … Braithy … what the frock are you on … seriously … no seriously.

You subscribe to the notion that Australia is a cultural void … except for its rampant racism … really ?

Does the word egalitarianism mean anything to you … google it … got it ? … good.

Let get on with it then … shall we … Australia is predominantly an egalitarian society … true … thats a fact … indisputable … you have the right to disagree … and undoubtably you will … simply for the sake of it … and good on you … you little free thinker you.

Multicultural … egalitarian … sporting (in more ways than you may think) … its the land of a fair go … more so than most … by a country mile … thats 1.609344 km for you snotty nosed whipper-snappers. Theres culture there … as plain as the Roman nose on your face … italian heritage hey … did we mention multicultural society … thats right we did.

Do you misinterpret a basic community based pacific island culture as something more than it is ?

Is it cultural history … as in thousands of years of history … that you see as being culture … surely not.

Rituals are based on culture … but culture isn't necessarily based on ritual … if you get my drift.

Australia has culture … maybe you just don't get it

And as for the teenage Seppo's opinions of Australia … give me a bloody brake … what kind of lame arsed statement is that … stone the flamin crows … you're a dingbat.

[crabmeat thompson]

I have never quite got my head around what the term culture means, and after many years I worked out that it was because it is used by different people at different times in different ways to mean exactly what they wanted it to mean, invariably to compare their 'culture' against 'the other'.

I suspect 'culture' is just a high minded way of being racist, of rejecting 'the other'.
.

Interesting point. This'll be long, so I apologise now.

Earlier in this convo, Shearer and I were running with different definitions and ideals of what culture is to us. I can't explain what culture means for Shearer, or anyone else. I can only explain what it is for me.

The last place I lived, we had neighbours behind us, across the street and down the street. Every weekend my wife and I could be assured that someone would have a party where everyone in sundry would be shit faced and making cnuts of themselves and ultimately wake us and our then 2 year old girl up at some ungodly hour.

My wife, because she is not from here could not understand the Australian way, or the Aussie culture. It seems unless you party hard and often, drink to you fall over you are not accepted as a true part of society or your particular social group.

When Ann came to the Braithy's first family Xmas lunch she couldn't understand how we all threw our food down really quick, barely said a word and got up when we left to go open presents in the mid afternoon, by that stage my dad and uncles were well and truly hammered and taking the piss out of everything that moves.

Where she comes from, eating is a festival of conversation, laughter and family. And it doesn't take a Xmas lunch for this to happen, it's every weekend when family are together. People drink, people become cheeky and people have fun, but no limits are explored or encountered and everyone goes home before the police arrive issuing noise complaints.

People there are considerate to their neighbour and they all seem to know everyone's goings on and are openly warm to you in the street etc ...

I don't get the same sense here. I did once upon a time. Maybe it's my prolific moving around from state to state that has isolated me? But I find my neighbours impolite, sometimes rude and barely ever considerate. As long as they're having fun, fcuk everyone else.

My take on Australian culture among other points I have previously mentioned here, is heavily skewered by this unaccountability of compressed living suburbia where everybody is after their own fill.

[Trev]

I'm loving this thread.
Whenever someone suggests the Realsurf forums are dying (even in jest), we come up with this sort of input.
Some REALLY well thought out opinions, mixed in with a few barbs to keep everyone on their toes.

Carry on, people.

Great stuff.

[Trev]

WE've probably had one "bad" neighbour in ten over the last 25 years.
Currently know everyone to three houses either side of us (sorry 2 on one side) and the two immediately across the street.
Guy over the road recently got a load of gravel delivered andwhen he started barrowing it around the back, two of us trotted over with our own shovel and barrows to help.
Both sides of our family have gatherings for celebratory meals which go on pretty well all afternoon or evening. No one is shit faced. But some won't drive home so they've been drinking. No one is abusive or violent.
I thought our families were pretty normal. They certainly are in the areas of the Gold Coast, Tweed Heads, Brisbane, Sydney and th eSunshine Coast where I've lived all my life.
My son and his wife and their grandson live in Canada. They're in their second house and neighbours around both have been fine.
Plenty of yobbos around to ruin it for normal people but it's like the squeaky door which gets the oil. The noisy ones get noticed even though they are in a minority.

[crabmeat thompson]

I love a cultured country … like soya milk … yogurt and goats cheese
so please done label racism like some abhorrent for of disease
all animals are racist … take dogs n cats n birds n fleas
the ku klux klan took it a step to far … but so did the Chinese

Ok enough of that dribble … Now ... Braithy … Braithy … Braithy … what the frock are you on … seriously … no seriously.

You subscribe to the notion that Australia is a cultural void … except for its rampant racism … really ?

Does the word egalitarianism mean anything to you … google it … got it ? … good.

Let get on with it then … shall we … Australia is predominantly an egalitarian society … true … thats a fact … indisputable … you have the right to disagree … and undoubtably you will … simply for the sake of it … and good on you … you little free thinker you.

Multicultural … egalitarian … sporting (in more ways than you may think) … its the land of a fair go … more so than most … by a country mile … thats 1.609344 km for you snotty nosed whipper-snappers. Theres culture there … as plain as the Roman nose on your face … italian heritage hey … did we mention multicultural society … thats right we did.

Do you misinterpret a basic community based pacific island culture as something more than it is ?

Is it cultural history … as in thousands of years of history … that you see as being culture … surely not.

Rituals are based on culture … but culture isn't necessarily based on ritual … if you get my drift.

Australia has culture … maybe you just don't get it

And as for the teenage Seppo's opinions of Australia … give me a bloody brake … what kind of lame arsed statement is that … stone the flamin crows … you're a dingbat.

Too much tone and bullshit in your post. After the first few lines I skipped it.

[steve shearer]

Shearer. Why is it when someone says something about something or someone beloved to them, their immediate reaction is to point the finger elsewhere?

There is nothing to me beloved about America other than their MLB baseball. And they sure as hell have their problems. All I did was illustrate a point about a bunch of college baseball players and coaches etc who have the assumption (rightfully or wrongfully, they have it) that Australia is a racist country against Aboriginals, Asians, Indians etc due to what they're fed through their media.

When asked about Australian culture, you rattle off 8 names, one of which would not wish to be involved with white Australian 'culture' on any level. And I have a narrow definition of culture?

Pot, meet kettle.

Braithy, your definition of culture seems restricted to family norms and traditions.
Fair enough, but other definitions can encompass a whole lot more.

You said Aus had no culture: that is usually meant to imply we have no artistic depth or meaning in our society.
I listed 8 names off the top of my head that encompassed literature, painting, science, sport, surfing etc etc.
I could rattle off a hundred more.
How is that a "narrow definition of culture."?

Your defintion of Aus culture seems restricted to a bogan/white bread majority culture that you experience on a daily basis.

Surely you admit there is more to it than that, as others have pointed out with ample clarity and logic.

Holding up either Hawaiian or Thai societies as examples of some kind of cultural perfection is fraught with danger.
It doesn't take too much scratching to reveal some pretty deep and violent fractures in both those cultures.

I have arguments with my mate who now lives in Indo all the time about exactly this.
Point is we have to compare human societies globally and historically for this argument to have any meaning and in that regard modern Aus culture, while having it's dark, ugly side (most of dredged up and encouraged by the Howard years BTW) stacks up pretty well.
If you wanted to be a human being anywhere in any country at any time then being born in Aus in this post war period ain't a bad deal......be you black, white, yellow or brindle.
And yes, many haven't got it so good but compared to the rest of the Globe they have a better chance than most to claw their way out of poverty.

Personal anecdote. Walking down the main drag of the Ox there's a Thai food joint run by a lady called Lech. Whenever we walk past my daughter runs in and gives her a big hug and they have a chat.
On the other side of the street the Greengrocer is owned by a lovely Iranian couple who fled religious persecution. My daughter will run across the street to hug Parvin. She'll give her some lovely persian treat to take home.
Try telling these people Aus is a nasty, racist place.

In the Global scheme of things everyone gets on OK in Aus.

[oldman]

The last place I lived, we had neighbours behind us

This just reminded me of the time of the cronulla riots. Our next door neighbours were from south africa, a family with two young kids like us, lovely people. Across the road, two poms with their 3 young kids, both lovely families.

We were having a little post christmas tipple together and I asked them of their impressions of the riots and generally remarked how shameful it was.

They just looked at me and laughed. The south african couple who had been in Australia for about 3 years, just thought it insulting and a joke that we would consider this something big. It didn't even make a storm in a teacup for them. They had come from a country with real racism, genuine endemic racism, and they knew what racism could do. They thought calling what had happened a 'riot' was just a bunch of naive australians who had no idea what really goes on.

The poms, well they just laughed too. In their words, "what happened here happens every other week in England, and is so commonplace it wouldn't have even made the newspapers back home." They just thought us extrememly naive and they couldn't believe the hullaballoo.

One of the worst examples of racism in our recent history wasn't even worthy of the term 'riot', according to them.

"That's not a riot, this is a riot."

They laughed at me for offering an apology on behalf of the non-neanderthal elements of Oz society.

Perspective!

[Skipper]

Boy, it's starting to look like Braithy against the world here.

Can't come to your defence though, as other's have rightfully pointed out, decrying Australia's lack of culture based around myopic experiences - neighbourhood racism, US college baseball jaunts, belligerent attacks on our unchecked drinking culture based on media frenzy type generalisations, and putting down tall poppies - is symptomatic of a cloistered and dare i say somewhat uncouth view of what this country really has to offer.
And that being, again, all that's been said previously - about our inherent egalitarianism, a youthful (we're only fecken just over 200yrs old in the modern world!) enthusiasm, a spirited quest to achieve in all manner of fields - arts, science, humanities and of course sport.

But on this note, my issue with Australians' shortcomings here, are what i've perceived to be an inherent lack of respect and support of 'the intellectual' in our society.
A dread and fear of those who chose words and thought over brawn and dogma.
Our lack of intellectual vigour in the press is an example.
Where are our great letter writers and essayists?, in the same vein that Europe, particularly France has. Even the US, the level of intellectual engagement in arts, politics, social and philosophical debate is far superior to ours.

Americans, who have a broad education, always come across as vastly more articulate when expressing views on a particular subject.

[*][*][*][*][*]

Just on the riots issue, as Olds has added, perspective indeed.
The reason they started was over the justifiable anger towards Middle Eastern lads and their unacceptable leering, torment and continued slandering of Aussie women at the beach.
The riots broke out not because Aussies decided to express racism towards another race, but because they'd had enough of this particular race putting very big holes in their manners as far as their attitude towards women went.
Kind of ironic in some way considering the archetypical aussie habit of the leer and wolf whistle. Not to mention the often derogatory attitude that blokes have towards 'chicks' perceived as 'easy pickings'

That some chose to use this as an excuse to abuse a race because of their difference is by the by. As has been shown, not symptomatic of widespread societal racism.

[Skipper]

Oh, forgot to mention.
I'm off to God's country for weekend. ....
Yep, Avoca here we come.
Just baked 4 Spanakopita and 2 Galatobouriko for a wedding feast on Sunday.

I'll say g'day to Matt for ya's