Australia vs. USA Culture

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by alakaboo » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:46 pm

this thread has been on topic for way too long... :)

as a tangential observation that follows on from Skipper, i saw a group of middle eastern origin in the city on Sunday.
there was one guy, and two girls. The girls were in full traditional dress, one in a burqa and one in what i think is called a niqab.
the guy was in shorts, had a mohawk, and a shirt that said on the front "i love tattooed bitches", and on the back "get a tattoo, bitch".

does my head in, it really does.

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by chrisb » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:49 pm

Dae wrote:And AC/DC took off from Australia as soon as they could.
and when Phil Rudd the Aussie-born drummer left, none of AC-DC had actually been born in Australia. :oops:

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by crabmeat thompson » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:12 pm

oldman wrote:
Braithy wrote:The last place I lived, we had neighbours behind us
This just reminded me of the time of the cronulla riots. Our next door neighbours were from south africa, a family with two young kids like us, lovely people. Across the road, two poms with their 3 young kids, both lovely families.

We were having a little post christmas tipple together and I asked them of their impressions of the riots and generally remarked how shameful it was.

They just looked at me and laughed. The south african couple who had been in Australia for about 3 years, just thought it insulting and a joke that we would consider this something big. It didn't even make a storm in a teacup for them. They had come from a country with real racism, genuine endemic racism, and they knew what racism could do. They thought calling what had happened a 'riot' was just a bunch of naive australians who had no idea what really goes on.

The poms, well they just laughed too. In their words, "what happened here happens every other week in England, and is so commonplace it wouldn't have even made the newspapers back home." They just thought us extrememly naive and they couldn't believe the hullaballoo.

One of the worst examples of racism in our recent history wasn't even worthy of the term 'riot', according to them.

"That's not a riot, this is a riot."

They laughed at me for offering an apology on behalf of the non-neanderthal elements of Oz society. :oops:

Perspective!
Yeah south africa is always going to be my downfall in this argument. I was hoping no prick would mention them.

I remember being in a bakery in Durban after the Durban 500 or the Mr Price or whatever they're calling it now.

There were two black women in front of me, and a big Afrikaner bloke walked in and slapped me on the shoulder and started abusing me for, "letting those kaffir bitches get served before me." He asked me where my balls were and inquired about my sexuality ordered his kebabs and left me there clinging to my flavoured milk in the foetal position.
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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by crabmeat thompson » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:27 pm

steve shearer wrote:
Braithy wrote:Shearer. Why is it when someone says something about something or someone beloved to them, their immediate reaction is to point the finger elsewhere?

There is nothing to me beloved about America other than their MLB baseball. And they sure as hell have their problems. All I did was illustrate a point about a bunch of college baseball players and coaches etc who have the assumption (rightfully or wrongfully, they have it) that Australia is a racist country against Aboriginals, Asians, Indians etc due to what they're fed through their media.

When asked about Australian culture, you rattle off 8 names, one of which would not wish to be involved with white Australian 'culture' on any level. And I have a narrow definition of culture?

Pot, meet kettle.
Braithy, your definition of culture seems restricted to family norms and traditions.
Fair enough, but other definitions can encompass a whole lot more.

You said Aus had no culture: that is usually meant to imply we have no artistic depth or meaning in our society.
I listed 8 names off the top of my head that encompassed literature, painting, science, sport, surfing etc etc.
I could rattle off a hundred more.
How is that a "narrow definition of culture."?

Your defintion of Aus culture seems restricted to a bogan/white bread majority culture that you experience on a daily basis.

Surely you admit there is more to it than that, as others have pointed out with ample clarity and logic.

Holding up either Hawaiian or Thai societies as examples of some kind of cultural perfection is fraught with danger.
It doesn't take too much scratching to reveal some pretty deep and violent fractures in both those cultures.

I have arguments with my mate who now lives in Indo all the time about exactly this.
Point is we have to compare human societies globally and historically for this argument to have any meaning and in that regard modern Aus culture, while having it's dark, ugly side (most of dredged up and encouraged by the Howard years BTW) stacks up pretty well.

Personal anecdote. Walking down the main drag of the Ox there's a Thai food joint run by a lady called Lech. Whenever we walk past my daughter runs in and gives her a big hug and they have a chat.
On the other side of the street the Greengrocer is owned by a lovely Iranian couple who fled religious persecution. My daughter will run across the street to hug Parvin. She'll give her some lovely persian treat to take home.
Try telling these people Aus is a nasty, racist place.

In the Global scheme of things everyone gets on OK in Aus.
Well if this couldn't get Carroll back, I fear nothing will. I jest. :)

Look I'm not denying I've lived in harmony at different places around the country, and there are plenty of down to earth Aussies I've met. More than a fair share of give you a shirt off their back types that I've encountered.

After living in so many areas, towns and coastal patches though, when I look back though, there is a clear gulf in the ratio of these salt of the earth types to the self indulgent, inconsiderate gluttons that are around. I would put at around 4:1. 4 pricks for every 1 decent person.

Of course I've been a youth worker and go to Uni, so I spend a helluva lot more time with the next generation ... I hear and see first hand what they aspire to be and what they're looking for. I guess I fear that day when they become our leaders.

For Trev, I'm jealous. I'm jealous I've never hung around in one spot long enough (Gold coast excluded) to have neighbours like these and enjoy that kind of relationship with them.
shearer wrote:If you wanted to be a human being anywhere in any country at any time then being born in Aus in this post war period ain't a bad deal......be you black, white, yellow or brindle.
Are we losing this, though? Is this slipping through our fingers? I feel like that was once the case, but now, not as much. Or am I just having a bad week, a bad month, where I'm not seeing this for whatever reason?

Judging by the sentiment of the rest of the guys in this thread ... It might be just me and my perception. I may need a zoloft. :lol:
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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by Trev » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:37 pm

^^^
You know. On "the old realsurf" :wink: by now Coops would have posted up a cartoon image of some gymnast or high diver doing a back flip.
But I takes my hat off to you Braithy. You can post with great passion yet have the good grace to be cheerful about it when things go against you.
Well done.
#sixfeetissixfeet!

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by crabmeat thompson » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:51 pm

TrevG wrote:^^^
You know. On "the old realsurf" :wink: by now Coops would have posted up a cartoon image of some gymnast or high diver doing a back flip.
But I takes my hat off to you Braithy. You can post with great passion yet have the good grace to be cheerful about it when things go against you.
Well done.

Cheers Trev.

In a bout of delicious irony, this thread almost restores my faith in the average aussie, and it's their mere presence in this thread which almost undermines everything I am trying to say.

Almost. :D
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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by oldman » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:45 pm

skipper wrote:Our lack of intellectual vigour in the press is an example.
Where are our great letter writers and essayists?, in the same vein that Europe, particularly France has. Even the US, the level of intellectual engagement in arts, politics, social and philosophical debate is far superior to ours.
I'm still firing off letters to the editor skip. :oops:

Absolutely, we are seriously let down by the press. I don't think it was always the way though. SMH used to be a paper of record, now I regularly find myself correcting the grammar and spelling, it has totally gone to pot. The opinions pages are no longer well constructed arguments, too many ideological positions unsupported by evidence or logic are given way too much column space.

If we had a fair dinkum quality press, Julia Gillard would be red faced as well as red haired, but Tony Abbott and the Liberals would just draw unmitigated derision and laughter, even from the dumbest bogans.

People like Paul Krugman in the US are fair dinkum giants, but as intelligent as he is, as cogent as his arguments are, he is having basically no effect on the voting public there. It's really sad. Most people get their political views from either Fox News or the Jon Stewart show. Fair dinkum, if they were just getting it from Jon Stewart they would be doing well, that man is also a giant, but FFS, he's a comedian, not a freaking political reporter.
skipper wrote:The reason they started was over the justifiable anger towards Middle Eastern lads and their unacceptable leering, torment and continued slandering of Aussie women at the beach.
The riots broke out not because Aussies decided to express racism towards another race, but because they'd had enough of this particular race putting very big holes in their manners as far as their attitude towards women went.
Kind of ironic in some way considering the archetypical aussie habit of the leer and wolf whistle. Not to mention the often derogatory attitude that blokes have towards 'chicks' perceived as 'easy pickings'

That some chose to use this as an excuse to abuse a race because of their difference is by the by. As has been shown, not symptomatic of widespread societal racism.
And here is the real explanation of the cronulla riots, except skipper forgot to mention Alan Jones and other shock jocks using these events for their personal glorification and ratings.

Nothing is ever straightforward.
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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by Chong » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:10 pm

This post has dragged me out of a long hiatus from occasionally contributing to the real surf forums.

My take on Australia is that yes it can have race issues but so do a lot of countries. As a long term blowin <insert sheep fornication slur> I think Australia is typically a fairly welcoming open country. Yes there is xenophobia and racial tension but everywhere I've lived has had similar issues.

Braithy; Maori culture has the concept of "aroha" which I believe is pretty similar to Aloha and Ohana. However Aroha isn't prevalent everywhere in NZ e.g.: in the endemic gang / homeboy culture. If you've ever suffered being dusted up by staunch homies or gangsters in NZ the blanket romanticism of "warm accepting polynesian" cultures can wane somewhat. This isn't to dismiss the many fcuken awesome aspects of Maori & Polynesian culture but merely to highlight that concepts like "culture" & "racism" aren't black and white - there is a hell of a lot of grey in the mix.

I do think Australia can have a dual take on multiculturalism and race where large urban centres are more tolerant and regional / rural areas can be a little less progressive. Working in Sydney you wouldn't stay in a job if you were racist; i currently happily work with people from very varied backgrounds e.g.: France, Colombia, Greece, Poland, India and yes Australia. Spending 40-50 hours a week with people from different backgrounds soon helps you identify the defining commonalities.

FWIW I think Australia is a good place to live and I typically find most Aussies, friendly, warm inquisitive and welcoming (apart from in the water in super competitive lineups). If it wasn't the case I wouldn't have lived here for 10+ years, wouldn't have married an Australian and wouldn't have a future young aussie on the way.

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by steve shearer » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:17 pm

Nice one Chong.

What does Cheech think of it?
I want Nightclub Dwight dead in his grave I want the nice-nice up in blazes

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by Chong » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:29 pm

steve shearer wrote:What does Cheech think of it?
Yep it's definitely a slightly juvenile moniker. It's not linked to Cheech - although NZ has a proud glorious tradition of fruitless iron lung mull abuse.

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by Clif » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:57 pm

I am with Braithy, here. I get his point. The thing is we all do racist things, even thinking that race even exists. It is a social construct and has the discursive effect of turning worker against worker with the only benefit going to the sustenance of the ruling class/hegemony as divided we fail ... I have done racist things numerous times without intending to because I have become used to seeing/understanding things in a particular way and then blurting something out without considering how that might appear to someone from a different background, only to be picked up later and explained the effects of my efforts when I think there is some norm that connects us all, besides servitude to the great spaghetti monster. My guess is that we have all done something racist at some time, systemic or blatant.

As for the Cronulla Riots. There was racism involved. It was no the only feature of it. But it was there for some and that is all anyone has ever suggested. Also present was misunderstanding, misogyny, machismo etc. These sort of events are never simply because of one issue or attitude.

ps. hello from China where I am the odd one out and experience systemic racism on a daily basis (White LaoWai) Every nation-state harbours racism. Arguing over who is more racist misses the point. Even one instance should be picked up on.

Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by boogaloo » Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:37 am

Trilobite wrote:Barlo just posted up a piece comparing observations on Aussie vs. US culture.

http://www.theinertia.com/travel/austra ... 428-words/

Aside from the fact that you guys have much better waves....Thoughts?
Barilotti is full of shit.

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by steve shearer » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:04 pm

skipper wrote: But on this note, my issue with Australians' shortcomings here, are what i've perceived to be an inherent lack of respect and support of 'the intellectual' in our society.
A dread and fear of those who chose words and thought over brawn and dogma.
Our lack of intellectual vigour in the press is an example.
Where are our great letter writers and essayists?, in the same vein that Europe, particularly France has. Even the US, the level of intellectual engagement in arts, politics, social and philosophical debate is far superior to ours.

Americans, who have a broad education, always come across as vastly more articulate when expressing views on a particular subject.
I don't know maybe this hoary old chestnut could use a dusting off as well.

Few years ago just b4 Howard was re-elected for the 4th? time I decided I'd had enough of Oz and it's creeping culture of cashed up boganism and anti-intellectualism (the so-called culture wars that the little dessicated coconut seemed to be winning).
Seeing as my wife is English I thought we would decamp the the Old Dart and bathe in the cultural and intellectual soup that flourishes there.
Well, what an eye opener that was.
Anyone who thinks Aus has a binge drinking culture should tramp around the Mother Country for a while.

The massive majority of young adults to middle-aged people work in clerical/IT positions. They are sedentary, sluggish, devoted to getting smashed on the weekends.
The culture is in serious decay and becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Yet despite this the old attitudes of cultural and intellectual superiority were in full effect. This was kind of puzzling to me. There was an insularity and lack of perspective which permeated every part of the public discourse.
I couldn't find one person or media outlet giving any intellectual consideration to the rise of Asia and the shift in geo-political and strategic realities which will and are as we speak reshaping the world.
To the finest minds I encountered in Pomgolia the Antipodes and Asia were still merely colonial playthings of no serious import.
Germany is the only European power who has seriously considered the China Question and restructured it's economy as a result ergo: it is the only relevant country in Europe right now and into the mid-term future.

When John Howard won the '04 election I searched for hours before I could find a mention of it in the British media. Turn on ABC RN on any day and you will hear a full wrap of world events and insight/analysis far superior to anything the BBC puts out there.

The results of this misplaced intellectual arrogance and myopia are now patently obvious: The UK is in serious decline, likely it will become a small/miidling power in the NATO region and it's relevance is patently decreasing.
Australia is on the ascension and part of that is a robust intellectual culture. For evidence look at recent essays in the Monthly by John Birmingham on Wikileaks and the situation in Afghanistan or the long essay by Hugh White in the quarterly essay about changing power dynamics between Bejing and Washington.

Sure we have no New Yorker or Paris Review but our intellectual life is on par with anything in Europe or the Americas.
I want Nightclub Dwight dead in his grave I want the nice-nice up in blazes

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by Clif » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:28 pm

Seems like these Yanks think Australia has no sense of humour (they have been giving Kurungabaa a serve for awhile lol) and Realsurf is a joke. Check out their latest comments thread, even dinosaur comes in for special treatment.

http://blasphemyrottmouth.wordpress.com ... /#comments

comment @10.17pm
Check my super cool thread called: “Best way to get a board from Sydney to Hawaii.” We also plan to start a new thread soon called “What’s Your Favorite Dinosaur?” It will surely blow you away. And if you don’t abide by our 9,000 word rules and regulations, then we will banish you for life… or worse, change the title under your moniker from Cool Surf Dude to Poo Poo Face.

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by mustkillmulloway » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:52 pm

:arrow: http://www.couriermail.com.au/money/mon ... 5934588700

the rich get richer...the poor poorer

we copy englands system goverment

we copy americas ideas of entainment and lifestyle

i 'll give there was a time when oz had it's own charecter

say 60's thu too 80's

now it's just a wannabe and before that it was beholden to the mother country
:idea:
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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by No Pants Lance » Sun Oct 10, 2010 10:27 pm

steve shearer wrote:
skipper wrote: But on this note, my issue with Australians' shortcomings here, are what i've perceived to be an inherent lack of respect and support of 'the intellectual' in our society.
A dread and fear of those who chose words and thought over brawn and dogma.
Our lack of intellectual vigour in the press is an example.
Where are our great letter writers and essayists?, in the same vein that Europe, particularly France has. Even the US, the level of intellectual engagement in arts, politics, social and philosophical debate is far superior to ours.

Americans, who have a broad education, always come across as vastly more articulate when expressing views on a particular subject.
I don't know maybe this hoary old chestnut could use a dusting off as well.

Few years ago just b4 Howard was re-elected for the 4th? time I decided I'd had enough of Oz and it's creeping culture of cashed up boganism and anti-intellectualism (the so-called culture wars that the little dessicated coconut seemed to be winning).
Seeing as my wife is English I thought we would decamp the the Old Dart and bathe in the cultural and intellectual soup that flourishes there.
Well, what an eye opener that was.
Anyone who thinks Aus has a binge drinking culture should tramp around the Mother Country for a while.

The massive majority of young adults to middle-aged people work in clerical/IT positions. They are sedentary, sluggish, devoted to getting smashed on the weekends.
The culture is in serious decay and becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Yet despite this the old attitudes of cultural and intellectual superiority were in full effect. This was kind of puzzling to me. There was an insularity and lack of perspective which permeated every part of the public discourse.
I couldn't find one person or media outlet giving any intellectual consideration to the rise of Asia and the shift in geo-political and strategic realities which will and are as we speak reshaping the world.
To the finest minds I encountered in Pomgolia the Antipodes and Asia were still merely colonial playthings of no serious import.
Germany is the only European power who has seriously considered the China Question and restructured it's economy as a result ergo: it is the only relevant country in Europe right now and into the mid-term future.

When John Howard won the '04 election I searched for hours before I could find a mention of it in the British media. Turn on ABC RN on any day and you will hear a full wrap of world events and insight/analysis far superior to anything the BBC puts out there.

The results of this misplaced intellectual arrogance and myopia are now patently obvious: The UK is in serious decline, likely it will become a small/miidling power in the NATO region and it's relevance is patently decreasing.
Australia is on the ascension and part of that is a robust intellectual culture. For evidence look at recent essays in the Monthly by John Birmingham on Wikileaks and the situation in Afghanistan or the long essay by Hugh White in the quarterly essay about changing power dynamics between Bejing and Washington.

Sure we have no New Yorker or Paris Review but our intellectual life is on par with anything in Europe or the Americas.
Completely agree with you there Steve.
Though I'm not following much of it on line or the journals you mention, except for the occasional peep at an Art journal, where I've always found critical writing to be on par with anything from the US or Europe, I do believe we have the capacity in some writers to afford us that status.
Our broadsheet press has a lot to answer for though. Can't rely on any changes there. Opinion pieces suck, save for the occasional stab by freelancers.

And yep, i agree that the UK's a festering hole of morally and intellectually bankrupt finance and IT industry mercenary cunce. No cultural values. Bereft of original thought. Vaccuous of idea and integrity beyond the latest fashion item or tech gadget. Worse still, many end up over here. :evil:

Re my remarks, It's not so much our lack of intellectual life i decry, as much as the general mindset, that oppresses it by disregard or ridicule.
As Dino so rightfully pointed out about his own treatment on these here forearms. :roll:

And.... at the risk of raising the ire of the hard nuts on here ....I agree with you, that we are on the ascension.

Hopefully with the tyranny of Howard's legacy on the wane, and the current pedestrian Everyman mindset of Jools' govt getting some currie in her, we could see some subtle shift...wishful thinking no doubt.

Clif wrote:Seems like these Yanks think Australia has no sense of humour (they have been giving Kurungabaa a serve for awhile lol) and Realsurf is a joke. Check out their latest comments thread, even dinosaur comes in for special treatment.

http://blasphemyrottmouth.wordpress.com ... /#comments

comment @10.17pm
Check my super cool thread called: “Best way to get a board from Sydney to Hawaii.” We also plan to start a new thread soon called “What’s Your Favorite Dinosaur?” It will surely blow you away. And if you don’t abide by our 9,000 word rules and regulations, then we will banish you for life… or worse, change the title under your moniker from Cool Surf Dude to Poo Poo Face.
I just wasted 10 minutes of precious life to see if there was any substance to what you're suggesting there Cliff.
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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by alakaboo » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:55 am

steve shearer wrote:Germany is the only European power who has seriously considered the China Question and restructured it's economy as a result ergo: it is the only relevant country in Europe right now and into the mid-term future.
Norway, Steve? They've got more than 1% of world capital, and rising. Russia seems to have learnt from them. There's hope yet...

Steve, the cases and sources you cite would stand along any internationally, but how many people actually read them?
It's all very well to say that the great unwashed of America get their news from Fox, but look at the degradation of the mainstream 'news' in Australia.
There was a time when 60 Minutes wasn't a punchline to a joke.
There was a time when Jon Stewart wasn't more incisive and editorial than the newsreaders on Channel 9.

Sydney Morning Herald and the Oz are less interested in analysis than saying something oldhat, and citing themselves "as reported in The Australian last Tuesday" or some bollocks like that. Never mind that Jim Lehrer discussed it a month back..

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Re: Australia vs. USA Culture

Post by Larry » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:55 am

btw, that peterbowes hardcock giving the seppos stick is no relation - just over here http://blasphemyrottmouth.wordpress.com ... /#comments

admirable stuff though _ I invited them over here for a chat but one look at Dino and the rest of you mongrels put the wind up them, pity that.

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