Ask Carroll

[daryl]

[Nick Carroll]

Nick, what are your thoughts on the Ace/Gabby thing? Ace said the priority disc was red before his wave and after he pulled out and pointed it out to Gabby. Luke kind of glossed over exactly what colour it was and when but admitted the guy controlling the disc made a mistake implying Ace was right. Gabby lied during his interview and said it was yellow. I personally think it should have been re-surfed, given Ace was clearly rattled and blew the rest of the heat. Fcuking debacle.

I think the whole priority disc thing is an embarrassing hark back to when pro surfing contests were run from tents.

Priority should be tracked electronically and announced the same way. Not by some poor bastard up in the judging tower turning a metal pole with a bit of coloured wood attached to it.

The management of information during heats is kinda farcical really, I mean the surfers have to rely on some beach commentator guy reading out scores and remaining time at some point when he gets sick of the sound of his own bullshit long enough to notice the surfers waving their arms around? what the FCUK?

How about this REVOLUTIONARY idea, a large electronic scoreboard with faces both out to sea and back toward the spectators, reading out priority, time remaining, and top scoring rides, along with what the guy in second place needs score-wise in order to take the lead???

And have that info matched on screen during the broadcast?

So everybody knows what's going on?

There is in fact such a scoreboard but it is a third party operation and is used only infrequently at events. And it doesn't carry a priority indicator.

Anyway, whatever went on in Ace's and Gabriel's heat, you can trace it back to the dumb arse metal pole twirling method of calling priority, and frankly, these days, there's no excuse for it.

[el rancho]

after witnessing Bruce Lee's beach commentary over the years at snapper I think I'm now done with attending that comp.

the inane boganisms and borderline-racist patronising of foreign surfers, endless spewing of the quiky tagline of the year, advertising the best spots to surf in a 500km radius.

fuck it makes my brain bleed

[steve shearer]

I think the priority debacle was the best thing that happened all comp.

that and Jordy's hair-blown grandiloquent claims.



On the nature of romantic lifelong attachment to surfing: I think it's time that old mare was taken down the back paddock clubbed over the head next to a shallow grave, no offence to the Fiona Capps and Malcolm Cox's and Peter Heller's who are always ready willing and able to exhume the corpse and give it another go around the paddock.

The facts are, most people do quit. Many, many, many more dabble for a bit and move on.

The lifetime romantic attachment myth is the result of a tiny, eloquent minority.

As a result of the talk of surfing numbers in Aus I did a bit of digging. Spoke to some large market research organisations who deal with sports.
Gemba group claimed 1.25million surfed in the last twelve months. When pressed what that meant, it was surfed ONCE in the last twelve months.
Narrow the focus to those who surf once a week and we get 250'000.
More than once a week? A measly 162'000. Very close to the numbers Carroll came up with rule of thumb.


Far, far many more dabblers and people who dip their toe in the water so to speak.

The myth that surfing exerts some kind of self evident romantic attachment to the human soul is just that , a myth.

Fact is, most surfers quit. Most who try it, don't go on to become lifetime or even regular surfers.

That won't stop the next middle aged journo looking to fund a surf trip from giving the myth a fresh coat of paint and selling it to a public keen to believe in some kind of numinous semi-religious experience.

[Nick Carroll]

Yeah, fcuk, if they took a halfway realistic look at the kind of cnuts who DO hurl themselves into a lifetime of surfing, me including btw, those pedlars of Romance would scream and run for the hills.

They're gonna read this book of mine and Tom's and just go "fcuk! they're all mad."

Like that great quote from one of the original North Shore Knights of the Round Table, I forget which one, maybe Buzzy Trent? Said he felt like throwing his board away and heading inland until he got to a place where nobody had ever heard of surfing, then buying a house and settling down.

[Beanpole]

You surf journos are just jaded. The nature of myth is to create a perfect image of something or someone. Continuing to occasionally read Peter Hellers book I find that this dichotomy is well documented. Anyone who starts surfing has to confront the fact that its hard and to succeed you have to be single minded and not easily discouraged on a number of levels. I enjoy reading a good rendition of someone exploring surf culture whether they start off ignorant or write from a perspective of engagement that few surfers attain. I seem to notice plenty of people in the surf these days. How many of them will become really good or aspire to for that matter?

Heller starts his story as a project-to learn to surf and become competent enough to ride big waves reasonably well in 6 months. He devotes himself completely to doing this and even buys a complete quiver of every type of surfboard. Now obviously this is dumb on a number of levels as he finds out. He's a good writer. i mean would you write off Hemingway if he decided to write about surfing?
Jack London did do something similar. Still silly but well executed.

Now speaking of myths the video of Alby Falzon using divining rods to check the positive energy of surfboards is pretty hard to beat. He is surely one of surfings biggest myth makers. Every coastal real estate agent on the north coast should give him royalties.

[Nick Carroll]

I seem to notice plenty of people in the surf these days. How many of them will become really good or aspire to for that matter?

Well this is a question I guess.

My own sense is that most surfers, ie most people who continue to surf regularly beyond the beginner phase and get a good taste for it, aspire to be better at it, even if it's only a little bit better. It's just kind of a struggle to find ways to improve beyond the obvious (and for most people very difficult): surfing a lot more than they already do.

I think it's not really good enough to write me off here as a jaded surf journalist by the way beany, what I am more than a journalist is a highly committed surfer who's been doing it for a really long time, heart and soul, and if I have developed a rather sceptical eye for some of said commitment's effects on people as opposed to the mythical fantasy of The Surfer's Essence or whatever, it's based on deep experience, my own and many others', not just some writerly spat.

Like I am willing to hang my own personal experience as a surfer out in public to try to elucidate that as well, would I do that if I were jaded?

[Beanpole]

Just taking the p*ss really. Although I wouldn't have minded being a surf journo with a flexible work schedule today

I mean on one level its like base jumpers writing off bushwalkers. Unfortunately surfing has the kind of unique distinction of being a place where high level committed for life enthusiasts compete for waves with the local dentist who decided to start surfing at 38. Theres gumby surfers who I'll be happy to have a rave with in the water. The only proviso is they know to share and do not turn around and drop in. Its not like I tell them not to. Some people pick that up pretty quick. A lot don't.

As I said when i mentioned Kook in the first place, I would really like beginning surfers to read this book. They would enjoy it and it would give them a bit of an education. As surfing expands the range of narratives will expand with it.

Anyway no offense meant there Nick. You've paid your dues ten times over plus you can write pretty good too.

[Nick Carroll]

yeah no worries, I sorta felt like I hadn't made myself that clear anyway

I know what you mean about the range of narratives expanding, but I'm a bit sceptical of the value of that as well. A million stories aren't necessarily better than a hundred. I look back down the line of surf books etc and I am in awe of, for instance, Tom Blake's Hawaiian Surfriders 1935, the simplicity and clarity with which Blake outlines his ideas about surfing, and the easy way in which he describes life and riding waves in Waikiki at the time, is a massive lesson to me as a writer and as a surfer. Australian Harry Hay's little book Swimming And Surfing, published in 1931, similarly leapfrogs pretty much every print, video or online how-to-surf treatise in current circulation. His first five words -- "water control and breath control" -- instantly surpass any learn to surf class I've ever watched.

I always hope to read original insights into surfing, how it can be done, and its effects on people -- it was a lot easier to have an original take on it 80 years ago. Frankly, far more looking forward to reading some good writing from surfers in places like Brazil than any more from California et al.

[Beanpole]

Actually been wondering about the take up of surf publications by these new surfers. I mean an adult wouldn't want to read most of the d*ck waving drivel in a lot of mags. Now I could imagine some buying something like White Horses or some of those coffee table books but there also seems to be a whole independent euro thing that includes where to surf videos and stuff that actually caters to these type of adult learners in a way that mainstream and alternative surf media for that matter doesn't. Obviously the hippy trippy retro stuff hits a chord with the more mature beginners.

Pumphouse Gang documented a particular element of surf culture that's still topical i.e. how to become an eternal surfer.
Would a learner actually be happy to walk around with a book called Kook?

[collnarra]

There's a board company up the coast called Dead Kooks.

[Davros]

You can learn to surf any time in life, you can even get good but still wonder what the Fcuk is "surf culture", does it mean foresaking high paying jobs or education to surf all day, does it mean localism, does it mean having a great time surfing with your mates, does it mean crafting your job and life style around the ability to surf when you want to .....does it really exist?

[Nick Carroll]

ah good question davros.

I think what people call "surf culture" is kind of the results of surfing and what it causes people to do. Culture is the result of shared experience, might be a better way of putting it.

The closer you get to the experience, the more visceral and real the culture. The further away you get, the more distal-feeling, indirectly related and usually the prettier it looks.

Surfboard design I would think is a part of surf culture that's pretty close to the bone; shit, a surfboard can cut you to the bone during surfing. Aloha shirts would be a part that's indirectly related and pretty (or maybe a bit kitschy depending on your taste).

Behaviour toward each other in the surf -- localism etc etc -- is very much a strong and basic part of surf culture, as is choosing to live a certain kind of life, exchanging opportunities in life for surfing time.

Realsurf forums are part of surf culture, they reflect a shared experience.

[steve shearer]

You can learn to surf any time in life, you can even get good

Umm. no you can't.

It takes thousands of hours of doing it to get good and no adult beginner, even an independently wealthy one has that kind of time and more plastic neural pathways at their disposal.

That also is a big part of surf culture.

In fishing 10% of the fisherman catch 90% of the fish. Thats because they've crossed a certain threshold of experience, active knowledge, opportunity and skill. I've seen many adult friends try and get to grips with the fishing caper and they can't quite seem to cross that threshold.

Surfing is very similar.

It's not snow skiing where you can as an adult more easily attain some level of competency greater than intermediate.

The greatest example is champion snowboarder and skateboardr Shaun White. Unbelieveable board skills. Bulk money and time. Came to it as an adult.
He's OK, he's kind of good. But he's just got that awkward quality that all adult beginners have.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8677081.

I think that is one of the key elements of surf culture. There's just no shortcuts to a high degree of proficiency. You can't fake it and you can't come from Austria and learn to surf in Bali and "get it" in 6 months like a surfer can snowboarding.

[Davros]

Interesting clip on Shaun White and I see what you mean his turns looked a little awkard and that was a highlights reel. But I guess its the definition of good vs. great vs excellent vs. shite....and beauty is in the eye of the beholder or really the beholder of that experience and talent. I got my first board at 13 and am still quite average but again whats the definition, e.g. reckon an average surfer should get shacked in overhead waves given the right opp, be able to surf in a crowd get waves not fall off and catch to many rails, have a clean pop, wave possie etc.....but a really good surfer for mind can look at a sandy beach on an onshore day with mutiple peaks/people and it being all over the shop, paddle straight to the best peak rip the bag out make it look great and score 20+ waves in an hour, there just aint that many. But Steve agree and that was a good example.

[ctd]

[quote="Beanpole"]Actually been wondering about the take up of surf publications by these new surfers. I mean an adult wouldn't want to read most of the d*ck waving drivel in a lot of mags. [/quote]

As a reasonably recent and mature beginner, I have no interest in the mainstream surf mags for many reasons, most of which I won't go into here.

But I've always wondered why aren't surf mags (or at least one surf mag) more like golf or fishing mags. Pick up a golf magazine and it will have a few interviews with pros and up and comers, maybe someone behind the scenes, sort of similar to surfing mags. But then, and this is the big difference, you get a series of articles about technique, tips, ways to improve. How to read a green or where flathead like to sit. Proper gear reviews, not just 200 words. Why don't surfing mags cover how to surf/improve your surfing, 10 tips to improve your duck dive, how to read a beach, what all the bits of the board do and mean etc etc (some do, occasionally). In addition, surfing magazines seem very aspirational to the level of fantasy - trips to outer Indonesia by helicopter or the day Pipeline was 30ft. Plus focus on competitive surfing, which I find to be virtually a different sport to my surfing.

So from my perspective the magazines seem very focused on certain limited aspects of the surfing culture (competition or travel or the dream) but not on the actual activity itself as practiced by most people. Whereas the golf or fishing magazines are focused on the activity - whether a beginner or pretty competent, every magazine will have something for you. I guess they don’t have the 'culture thing' getting in the way…

I'm not arrogant enough (quite) to believe that publishers haven’t thought of the above and presumably market testing shows there isn’t a big enough demand for it. I assume many magazines are deliberately aimed at 14yr old boys because they are the ones who will buy them. And the surfing press does seem - as an outsider - to be quite restricted by commercial relationships (for example, everyone talks about production of pop outs in Asia, but are there articles examining exactly what is going on in those factories?). I also know none of these thoughts are particularly original - indeed Nick himself covered some in this article 4 years go: http://kurungabaa.net/2010/09/07/critic ... -mantalos/

Not sure that I've asked a question of Nick (embarrassing given that I've hardly ever posted, but the 'lurkers start contributing' thread has inspired me). Hopefully there are some issues you can comment on - perhaps is it still valid to sell/market/treat surfing on the basis that it is an ('imaginary') community (ie you are a 'surfer' - as defined by 'surfers' - and therefore on the inside and part of the community, or not a surfer and therefore on the outside and not to be listened to) when so many surfers nowdays identify as 'someone who enjoys surfing' rather than 'as a surfer'? Is there, as beanpole alluded to, a difference between how this is seen in Australia and in Europe (and perhaps other places) - is Europe more relaxed about the culture thing? Maybe this is the reverse to your earlier discussion about losing the obsession - what if it never was an obsession - where do you sit in surfing culture (nowhere, perhaps - and possibly justifiably).

[Natho]

ctd, I think you have a reasonable point and good post. Look I myself am not a buyer of surf magazines as such (used to buy the odd board design issue but pretty much stopped), however I have seen the odd tip given, or section from Nick's excellent book re produced. Read some interesting stuff on board design too, just not to the frequency of the Golf or fishing mags that you mention. The tips and info are there, just in much smaller doses relative the other blurb and topics that go into a surf mag.
Geez it's hard to give tips in a mag though and have that flow through to improvement in the water. Surfing is so damn hard that it is time in the water rather than tips in a mag that makes the difference. Possibly a tip based DVD with the mag would work better?
Im still with you though. I often will buy a fishing magazine or the like because there is info there that I can learn from and put into practice. Then again tips in fishing a probably easier to put into practice than surfing. Golf on the other hand?? I reckon its much harder than surfing.

I always thought that a big target market of surf magazines were people who don't actually surf, but aspire to the 'culture' ? Possibly I am wrong.

[steve shearer]

thats surf fashion.

boy, that term sure sounds dated these days.