Skin Cancer

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Animal_Chin
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by Animal_Chin » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:50 pm

roy Stewart wrote:You are not being logical

I said MOST not all.

By pointing out that most sunblocks are toxic I'm endangering the public ? Hahahahaha :lol:

.
There you go again Roy. Your language suggests that you know for a fact that most sunblocks are toxic. There is little credible research to support this statement. This is why I believe you to be an idiot.

Scientists, educators, academics would use language that supports their standpoint. ie "Recent studies have shown... The literature suggests... The strongest hypothesis explains..." you get the idea.

If you said "In my person opinion...." sunscreens may be toxic to some people, then I would nod my head, think that could be possible, and get over it. As it is now, you deserve all the ridicule I can throw at you.

As far as endangering the public? What if I went on a campaign to convince people that children don't need to wear seatbelts? I know for a fact that no child has ever been killed by not wearing a seatbelt and actually seatbelts can cause lung cancer in most people. 90% of children who wear seatbelts will die from lung cancer in their teens.

I can read that and know it is crap. Others may not be so insightful. Your argument against "toxic sunscreens" IS harmful and needs to be challenged.

If you are offended by what I say to you... pfft. Couldn't give a rats arse.

Back to arses again. :roll:
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by dUg » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:23 pm

roy Stewart wrote:You know perfectly well that you can do some online research yourself, but you want me to do it so that you can scoff at my sources. . .. it's an old tactic.
No, it's called providing supporting evidence.

As rightly Trev pointed out, YOU made the somewhat sweeping claim that "the whole thing is a scam", therefore YOU must have a means to back it up, or humbly accept further pasting. This whole X-files "the truth is out there" sh1t ain't gonna cut it.

mustkillmulloway
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by mustkillmulloway » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:25 pm

wasn't me :shock:
Last edited by mustkillmulloway on Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
reginald wrote:Hang on, now all of a sudden I'm the bad guy. How the try again did that happen?

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roy Stewart
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by roy Stewart » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:35 pm

dUg wrote:
roy Stewart wrote:You know perfectly well that you can do some online research yourself, but you want me to do it so that you can scoff at my sources. . .. it's an old tactic.
No, it's called providing supporting evidence.

As rightly Trev pointed out, YOU made the somewhat sweeping claim that "the whole thing is a scam", therefore YOU must have a means to back it up, or humbly accept further pasting. This whole X-files "the truth is out there" sh1t ain't gonna cut it.
You seem to be labouring under the illusion that there is some kind of court case going on. In fact I'm just offering my opinion as food for thought, take it, leave it, complain about it, or research it as you choose.


.

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roy Stewart
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by roy Stewart » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:37 pm

mustkillmulloway wrote:ok...here i go :roll:

remember the swineflu :?:

the pan endemic that was going kill us all :idea: :idea:

i read a article in a medical mag, suggesting how WHO can regain credibity

seems the world health organisation came under massive pressure from pharacutical companys ( the same ones who sponser and help fund WHO ) too declare the pan endemic ( the one that didn't happen :idea: ) and said pharmacutical companys could sell said immunisation drug ( yet to be proven work )

my point :arrow: wear a hat cause everybody wants sell u something....especially the medical profesions :roll: and anybody can and will public research if it helps sell the sponsers product....regardless it's real benifits :idea:

p.s leave roy alone.....guys got bigger problems....bloody termites :lol:
Those Australian army hats are pretty good I had one for a while.

Support hatmakers !

8)

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roy Stewart
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by roy Stewart » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:39 pm

Animal_Chin wrote:
There is little credible research to support this statement.
There is little credible research to support that statement

:roll:

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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by mical » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:51 pm

mustkillmulloway wrote:my point :arrow: wear a hat cause everybody wants sell u something....especially the medical profesions :roll: and anybody can and will public research if it helps sell the sponsers product....regardless it's real benifits :idea:
Quoted for truth :!:

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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by Trev » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:59 pm

Hats are great and in my case, almost a necessity. But they don't do anything to stop the reflected rays off the water.
A few weeks ago, during this mongrel flat spell, I took myself down to Shelley Beach one week day morning, along with a cup of coffee and a book and sat under the trees just above the water for about two hours. I had an Akubra on despite being in the shade. Ended up with a very sunburnt face. :oops:
It could only be from the reflection of the sun's rays.
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by roy Stewart » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:15 am

roy Stewart wrote:
Animal_Chin wrote:
There is little credible research to support this statement.
There is little credible research to support that statement

:roll:
Correct, there's little credible research to support Animal Chin's statement that there's little credible research to support Roy's statement.

There fore we must put animal chin in the stocks.

.

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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by Trev » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:28 am

roy Stewart wrote:
roy Stewart wrote:
Animal_Chin wrote:
There is little credible research to support this statement.
There is little credible research to support that statement

:roll:
Correct, there's little credible research to support Animal Chin's statement that there's little credible research to support Roy's statement.

.
And you reckoned MY argument was circular. :mrgreen: :shock:
Beanpole
You aren’t the room Yuke You are just a wonky cafe table with a missing rubber pad on the end of one leg.

Skipper
I still don't buy the "official" narrative about 9/11. Oh sure, it happened, fcuk yeah. But who and why and how I'm, not convinced it was what we've been told.

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Animal_Chin
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by Animal_Chin » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:20 am

roy Stewart wrote:
roy Stewart wrote:
Animal_Chin wrote:
There is little credible research to support this statement.
There is little credible research to support that statement

:roll:
Correct, there's little credible research to support Animal Chin's statement that there's little credible research to support Roy's statement.

There fore we must put animal chin in the stocks.

.
Dude! You just quoted yourself!

That pretty much sums up your mental state I guess. :shock:
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by boogaloo » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:33 am

There is evidence that, if you tan rather than burn, regular exposure to the sun so that you are always tanned will prevent melanoma and increase the chance of surviving melanoma if you get it. So all we have to do is live naked 8) :D like :roll: intended and work outdoors instead of indoors.:mrgreen:

http://www.westonaprice.org/Sunlight-and-Melanoma.html
"sun exposure ... caus(es) the skin to age prematurely and to become loose and leathery. This is called solar elastosis (SE). When researchers at the University of New Mexico investigated melanoma, they found a marked decrease in the disease in patients with solar elastosis. In other words, more sun exposure equals less incidence of melanoma. And for those patients who did have melanoma, the subsequent mortality from the disease was approximately one-half as high among those patients with signs of SE."

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/17/3/467.full
"The same exposure in another deeply tanned or pigmented individual may evoke little measurable response because of the filtering effects of the pigmentation."

http://behindthemedicalheadlines.com/ar ... oma-update
"There is evidence that sunscreens prevent squamous skin cancer, but not melanomas. ... With melanoma, it seems that intermittent sun exposure, particularly that received in childhood and adolescence, is most relevant. Melanoma occurs more frequently in individuals with poor sun tolerance, that is those who freckle and burn as opposed to tan."

http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/8-6-21/72235.html
[quoting from an editorial in the British Medical Journal]
"... non-melanoma skin cancers occur on the most sun exposed areas, such as the face and hands, whereas most melanomas occur on the areas least exposed to the sun [2]. Intermittent and occupational sun exposure has been found to reduce the risk of malignant melanoma [2–5]."

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Animal_Chin
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by Animal_Chin » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:34 am

boogaloo wrote:There is evidence that, if you tan rather than burn, regular exposure to the sun so that you are always tanned will prevent melanoma and increase the chance of surviving melanoma if you get it. So all we have to do is live naked 8) :D like :roll: intended and work outdoors instead of indoors.:mrgreen:
Thanks for making an effort to bring some credibility to this argument.
http://www.westonaprice.org/Sunlight-and-Melanoma.html
"sun exposure ... caus(es) the skin to age prematurely and to become loose and leathery. This is called solar elastosis (SE). When researchers at the University of New Mexico investigated melanoma, they found a marked decrease in the disease in patients with solar elastosis. In other words, more sun exposure equals less incidence of melanoma. And for those patients who did have melanoma, the subsequent mortality from the disease was approximately one-half as high among those patients with signs of SE."
This internet article is quoting from some good sources. The Journal of the National Cancer Institute is a well respected, peer reviewed publication. The author of the article however, is very selective in what he uses.

At no time does he correctly identify which journal he is using and this makes it difficult to assess the validity of his argument. I could use the exact same article you are using and produce the following quotes:

- "Solar radiation is a well-established skin carcinogen, responsible for more cancers worldwide than any other single agent,"

- "In an article published in the London Telegraph, Professor Jonathan Rees, a dermatologist at Newcastle University, said, "The facts of this are that ultraviolet light is the major known cause of skin cancer."

I would like to see you continue your argument with the use of the original journal and not an internet article written by a retired MD with a criminal background.
http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/17/3/467.full
"The same exposure in another deeply tanned or pigmented individual may evoke little measurable response because of the filtering effects of the pigmentation."
Good article this one. The conclusive paragraph states the following:

"Although there are numerous questions remaining about melanoma risk and UV exposure, including exposure timing, age at exposure, behavioral components, modulating effects of host susceptibility factors on exposure, and the biological mechanisms of melanoma induction (29), the body of evidence implicates UV exposure as a major contributor to melanoma etiology."

The bold type is from me.
http://behindthemedicalheadlines.com/ar ... oma-update
"There is evidence that sunscreens prevent squamous skin cancer, but not melanomas. ... With melanoma, it seems that intermittent sun exposure, particularly that received in childhood and adolescence, is most relevant. Melanoma occurs more frequently in individuals with poor sun tolerance, that is those who freckle and burn as opposed to tan."
Another good source. I agree with the key points you have highlighted but for the purpose of the current argument (that skin cancer may be caused by the use of sunscreen) you really should have read the next line of the article:

"There is no evidence to support the suggestion that sunscreen use increases melanoma risk."
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/8-6-21/72235.html
[quoting from an editorial in the British Medical Journal]
"... non-melanoma skin cancers occur on the most sun exposed areas, such as the face and hands, whereas most melanomas occur on the areas least exposed to the sun [2]. Intermittent and occupational sun exposure has been found to reduce the risk of malignant melanoma [2–5]."
Not the best source...

The online news article is selectively quoting from an editorial written for the British Medical Journal. No real problem there, but without a subscription I can't read the full article. I'll not comment on the your quote but I will state that the author of the article (John Briffa) has a vested interest in the natural health industry. This seems to be a common theme in the argument that sunlight may not cause skin cancer.

Well Boogaloo, I'll thank you again for putting together a structured argument. Good to see some effort put in rather than Roy's ignorant, lazy one-liners...
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roy Stewart
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by roy Stewart » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:42 am

No need to be abusive a chin.

It's laughable that you attempt to evaluate the material entirely on the basis of some spurious standard of source credibility.

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Animal_Chin
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by Animal_Chin » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:56 am

roy Stewart wrote:No need to be abusive a chin.

It's laughable that you attempt to evaluate the material entirely on the basis of some spurious standard of source credibility.
Yes Roy, I know your feelings on the peer review system... :roll:

Still waiting for a better standard from you.
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by Grooter » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:16 am

Just use this for fcuks sake

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It's organic, contains no nasty chemicals and it'll stop you burning. Used it for years and can confirm it does the job.
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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by mical » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:27 am

In comes Hatchy with the late mail :!:

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Re: Skin Cancer

Post by oldman » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:41 am

Sorry I missed this shite fight.

Hate to say it folks, but Roy's comments are much closer to current and past science than you might think.

Animal_chin, you are hiding behing that term "peer-reviewed material". In just about every field of study, there is no such thing as consensus in peer reviewed work. Further, you clearly haven't been reading the peer reviewed papers that I have.

Here is the current state of science peer reviewed work that I have been reading;

- current sunscreens are very different from sunscreens made 20 or 30 years ago, because they regularly have to remove certain chemicals from sunscreens after they have found them to be harmful to humans, and in some cases carcinogenic (but I won't use that term 'toxic'). Never heard of these substances? Check it out for yourself.

- the history of sunscreen development is that they have used stuff that works in terms of screening the sun with very little or no peer reviewed research on other possible harmful effects of applying these chemicals on your skin;

- nano-particles have recently been added to many sunscreens these days and peer-reviewed scientific papers establish that nano-particles are a whole new world of possible harmful effects at the macro and cellular levels, and yet the testing that is being done is being done on human beings over a generation, not via some lab rats;

- Roy is largely correct about his vitamin d deficiency statements, although not sure of his claims about only UVB really being required for vit d production.

- current scientific reviewed papers point to vitamin d having an active role in prevention of cancers, with melanoma being one of them.

- current thinking on melanoma is that the significant factor is how many times you were sunburnt before puberty, so if you are past puberty, current thinking is that sun exposure is unlikely to be a significant factor in melanoma.

You're all shooting the messenger, but then again the messenger was Roy.

Sometimes the madman is pointing the right way.
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