Sad Use of Aussie Flag at Cronulla for Aust. Day

[Clif]

I was walking down the mall in Cronulla for a coffee. Rainy day. Surf had been good. Looking forward to the public holiday coming up. All good, then I see that horrible discount store with all the Australian Flag jingoistic t-shirts and tank tops and plastic flags and paraphernalia.

OK, all right, Aussie day for some .. Invasion day for others. Let it slide Clif. Nationalism sucks, and so does patriotism. As Samuel Johnson said: "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" .

But it is my opinion only. If people want to go down that road this weekend well ...

But then on the way back they had put out a whole row of tank tops with the slogan

"IF YOU DON'T LOVE IT, LEAVE"

underneath the Australian flag.

That's it, I said. In a huff and a puff I went in and asked who gave them permission to tell whom to leave, and why sell such inflammatory stuff, and what claims they were making on behalf of those who had fought and died for that flag?

After a long blank look from the manager I get: "It isn't against any race in particular".

My inept reply: "just those who don't look or believe the same things as like you huh"?

A bloke behind me with said tank top in hand pipes up, and goes "yep".

The place was absolutely full with crew buying this stuff for the w/e.

I hope more of the decent people in Cronulla protest the store. Such slogans are ugly and discriminatory and unnecessary. INSTEAD, How about this slogan:

"WELCOME TO AUSTRALIA, YOU'LL LOVE IT HERE"

[porca]

couldnt agree more Cliff. Never been able to quite work out what that slogan means, "If you dont love it leave" If I dont love the flag should I leave or is it the design/colours, or the ruling government of Australia, etc.

Why cant everyone just treat each other with a little respect its not too hard i dont think.

[Lucky Al]

don't know if you read the lifesavers thread clif but i reckon the advice a few people gave there applies here: 'do not mess with a panicker.'

[Beanpole]

They could sell them at the bottlo so they can make sure every drunken knucklehead in Cronulla has got one. I hope a pack of middle eastern car enthusiasts pulls up at the shop to buy some fluffy dice for their bluebird.
I doubt theyd be as philosophical about it as you are Clif.

I doubt theyd sell them at Bondi Junction but you never know.

[2nd Reef]

Listen up Clif,

I found what you wrote about the Shire and it's inhabitants very distressing. So I'm gonna tell you this once and once only;.

"If you don't love the Shire, leave"

[BA]

A shop in Manly run by 'Middle Eastern' looking guys has the same shirts.

[2nd Reef]

The Weight Watchers near me has a similar shirt;

"IF YOU LOVE DONUTS, HEAVE"

[FishStick]

A shop in Manly run by 'Middle Eastern' looking guys has the same shirts.

Hmmm maybe he loves Australia?

[Nick Carroll]

"IF YOU DON'T LOVE IT, LEAVE"

God I hate this sentiment.

Clif you know they don't know what "it" is in any case. Ask 'em the difference between James Cook and Arthur Phillip and they'd probably say, "Who?"

[fearless fly]

with all the Australian Flag jingoistic t-shirts and tank tops and plastic flags and paraphernalia.

so clif, why is the Australian flag "jingoistic"?

I'm not talking about the "love it or leave" one (which is just trite and banal), just the picture of the flag on the t-shirt or a flag itself.

I think you'll find that Samuel Johnson was refering to false patriotism when he made that quote, not pariotism per se. I don't believe that the majority of people who wear or show the flag would necessarilly be scoundrels.

In particular, I find it somewhat perplexing that you quote "those who fought and died under that flag" as an arguement point with the store owner, yet your first paragraph would also seem to admonish any of those who fought under it and decide to show it (as my father in law did and does on various occasions such as Australia Day and ANZAC Day)?

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with being proud of your country, albeit all it's faults and foilbles.

Not withstanding the valid debate over the date, I don't believe that wearing an image of the Australian flag or just showing the flag on Australia Day is in any way jingoistic.

[Natho]

The one that gets on my goat is "Australia is the best country in the world"

....obviously to make that statement I assume you have lived in all the others. :?

[wanto]

yep. i love this country. but all you fucktards with southern cross windscreen stickers, tattoos and shirts are fucking try hard bogans. i'm with cliff on this.

[Clif]

I understand what Samuel Johnson was referring to. But thanks for the lesson anyway.

And I was in a "huff and a puff" and clearly stated my response was "inept". I said "speaking on behalf of those who fought and died etc". It was not a clear argumentation. So your partial quote is misleading.

As for "jingoistic", I was referring to the context of the flags - that is how they were being used and what they were being used to get across in the presence of that slogan, and in the setting of what has happened at Cronulla in the past. There continues to be a sense of threat at times in that mall for those not of an Anglo background, and this influenced my account and impression of the flags on t-shirts etc.

Evidence of uncomfortable feelings come from my experience of bringing friends etc into this space and their observations and experiences [anecdotal] , and some of the interviews I have read online at the Centre for Social Inclusion at Macquarie University that has been researching such issues .

It is a very different context and history when people such as your father-in-law wear the flag. Different stories and beliefs and experiences are invoked in such settings and use ... I was aware of this complication of my "huff and puff". That's why I pointed it out.

I thought that to put the Aust. flag on cheap t-shirts and to use this paraphernalia in such a way to let other know they don't belong, with an aggressive expression, is precisely jingoistic I thought.

Some friends also find the Aust. flag on anything jingoistic because it reminds them of what they see as an invasion (as I also clearly stated). See the Union Jack in the corner of the flag.

"love it or leave" one (which is just trite and banal)

This expression is only "trite and banal" if you feel like you already belong. We could try walking a mile in another's shoes, such as someone who has recently arrived or trying to make their way in the area and already feel as if they don't belong yet, or dealing with questions of where they belong after being ousted from their home due to war etc. How would such people understand and experience such an expression of "pride" and nationalism and patriotism. A bit scary at times I think.

"Trite and banal": I think it is a bit more than that.

Anyway, some honest thoughts for you Fly. Take them as you may ...

[2nd Reef]

Bit bloody harsh Wanto. After all, they may be proud Kiwi's



Samoans


or hail from Papua New Guinea


Or perhaps they are from South Africa, Namibia, Chile, Peru, Uruguay or any of the other countries that can see the Southern Cross?

[BenNickson]

The Australian flag unfortunately is no longer a symbol of honour and respect for many anymore. Symbols change and it has become a sad realisation of mine that Australian paraphenalia is now a symbol of racism, a deep seated racism that is not often recognised by the individual conveying these sentiments. It is also all about context, if you believe that wearing the flag is a symbol of pride think about muslim people after the Cronulla riots and the fear that they were struck with(and possibly still are) when they saw people wearing that flag. What about the countless young white males wearing the flag as a cape as they gang bashed a handful of people that looked a little different to them? As they pretended they were some sort of righteous super hero defending what they thought was theirs to defend against an enemy that doesn't exist.
Its been a real fear of mine for a few years that there are a few Jena's emerging in Australia and the day of the Cronulla riots I felt ill, sick to my stomach that my countrymen were commiting these hate crimes. Its difficult to be patriotic when a good proportion of people that make up my country are soo closed minded, and its not just racism, what about the huge increase in homophobic assault?
Its difficult to be patriotic lately

Just on a side note that might give some people some perspective, you guy should check this out. An american poet on DEF POETRY JAM. Check it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fhWX2F6G7Y
Powerful huh?

[Clif]

Just for the record, I do worry about national sovereign borders and expressions of support for this process. It implies a whole philosophical position that worries me about human rights, the right to movement, the right to citizenship, "ownership of country, and the like. There is a interesting work on the outcomes of sovereignty by Primo Levi and Giorgio Agamben that you might find interesting. And Indigenous elders and scholars from around the world have been admonishing the process for centuries.

[WANDERER]

yep. i love this country. but all you fucktards with southern cross windscreen stickers, tattoos and shirts are fucking try hard bogans. i'm with cliff on this.

3rded.

However... I will be drinking a shiteload of beer, playing some backyard cricket and firing up the barbie (hopefully for a 'Carolina Treet' roasted chook ) with the hottest 100 blarin the whole time.

[Clif]

this is not to say I don't love my beer, surf, cricket and hottest 100 on the holiday