Bouncers at Northies Cronulla have long had a reputation of being A-grade arseholes and giving the locals a hard time. The list of locals that have been banned from drinking there is ridiculous. Doesn't hurt the patronage though as Cronulla only has 1 pub and people come from all over to drink there. 3 locals get banned, there is still a line going around the corner of punters trying to get in.
This attitude changed markedly in the wake of the riots as the bouncers realised that they were obvious targets if reprisal attacks occurred. So they let locals come back with the theory being that if there was trouble the locals would back them up.
The theory, luckily, hasn't been tested yet.
Thoughts are with you and the grub Grazza.
gold coast bashing victim
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Beanpole
- That's Not Believable
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I remember sitting in the beer garden at the front of the Bondi Pub years ago as 7pm struck and singlets were no longer allowed inside. This pissed skinny guy in a singlet with a mullet and a couple of teeth missing tries to get back in. The bouncer was a polite, heavy set young guy.
He told the guy politely he needed a shirt. The guy started abusing him and left.....then he came back.....then he had a go at the bouncer.......then he got sat on his arse....then he left.......then he came back swinging punches.....then he got sat on his arse.......then he left.........then he came back swearing and his girlfriends screaming at the bouncer and hes swinging punches......then he gets chucked across a couple of tables with glass smashing everywhere and the bouncer had his shirt ripped off and the guy got hammered....then he left but he didn't come back.
As for the Coogee Bay Hotel
He told the guy politely he needed a shirt. The guy started abusing him and left.....then he came back.....then he had a go at the bouncer.......then he got sat on his arse....then he left.......then he came back swinging punches.....then he got sat on his arse.......then he left.........then he came back swearing and his girlfriends screaming at the bouncer and hes swinging punches......then he gets chucked across a couple of tables with glass smashing everywhere and the bouncer had his shirt ripped off and the guy got hammered....then he left but he didn't come back.
As for the Coogee Bay Hotel
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pipemonkeys
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Somewhat understandably, I haven't been online for a couple of completely terrifying weeks.
Sammy got discharged from Gold Coast Hospital (which sadly has great expertise in these sort of injuries through its constant supply of fresh patients) yesterday and is very happy to be at home. From being pretty close to death 13 days ago to being up and around and joking with his mates is pretty amazing, but he has a ton of spirit. His injury was serious, and all brain injuries take a long time to heal. There are still some affects, but he continues to get better every day, and we are becoming increasing confident that he'll recover completely - only time will tell.
The support from the surfing community has been awesome - we would have crumbled without it.
Sammy got discharged from Gold Coast Hospital (which sadly has great expertise in these sort of injuries through its constant supply of fresh patients) yesterday and is very happy to be at home. From being pretty close to death 13 days ago to being up and around and joking with his mates is pretty amazing, but he has a ton of spirit. His injury was serious, and all brain injuries take a long time to heal. There are still some affects, but he continues to get better every day, and we are becoming increasing confident that he'll recover completely - only time will tell.
The support from the surfing community has been awesome - we would have crumbled without it.
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kreepykrawly
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Back in the water today for his first surf. So cool. A little rusty timing-wise but pretty good - better than I expected, and far, far better than we had dared hoped for a couple of months back. We have to watch him like a hawk as there is still a chance him having a seizure, a fairly serious event if you're in the water. He's almost all back now - I can't believe how lucky we've been.
Good to hear Sammy is doing much better.
I am glad to hear from KK that there is a wide number of decent and responsible bouncers that want to do the right thing. I've seen both kinds but it is the bad ones unfortunately that stand out. The good ones just seem to go unnoticed, probably as KK suggested they diffuse situations before they even get started.
What happened to Sammy sounds like a standard belt'em and knock'em down the stairs, move to me having seen it before it sounds all too familiar. I think that bouncer needs to made to account fully. I would suggest a civil suite once the criminal matter has been settled for damages. It sounds like he will be found guilty if there is CCTV footage and all that has been said about no provocation is true. A guilty verdict would help, but the standard of proof required in a civil matter is only on the balance of probability, as opposed to beyond reasonable doubt in criminal matters. So even in the unlikely circumstance that hew was not found guilty it is not a show stopper (just like the OJ cases, different legal systems but same standards of proof, amongst other similarities but some marked differences too, thank God).
You can claim of course for all medical bills, lost earnings, lost potential earnings if he doesn't fully recover, and then there are punitive damages too. Sometimes big messages need to be sent, if it is true that the bouncer already had pending assault charges there might be a possibility of joining the club as a codefendant. If you haven't already, get some advice, or think about getting some.
I am glad to hear from KK that there is a wide number of decent and responsible bouncers that want to do the right thing. I've seen both kinds but it is the bad ones unfortunately that stand out. The good ones just seem to go unnoticed, probably as KK suggested they diffuse situations before they even get started.
What happened to Sammy sounds like a standard belt'em and knock'em down the stairs, move to me having seen it before it sounds all too familiar. I think that bouncer needs to made to account fully. I would suggest a civil suite once the criminal matter has been settled for damages. It sounds like he will be found guilty if there is CCTV footage and all that has been said about no provocation is true. A guilty verdict would help, but the standard of proof required in a civil matter is only on the balance of probability, as opposed to beyond reasonable doubt in criminal matters. So even in the unlikely circumstance that hew was not found guilty it is not a show stopper (just like the OJ cases, different legal systems but same standards of proof, amongst other similarities but some marked differences too, thank God).
You can claim of course for all medical bills, lost earnings, lost potential earnings if he doesn't fully recover, and then there are punitive damages too. Sometimes big messages need to be sent, if it is true that the bouncer already had pending assault charges there might be a possibility of joining the club as a codefendant. If you haven't already, get some advice, or think about getting some.
Agreed re some comments.
KK's one about how only a small number etc, is true mostly. Being a former foundation member of ASIAL myself, and the person who would've had to pay out if a staff did bash someone, the NSW overhaul of the Industry was a complete joke. A toothless tiger that turned blind eyes where they could to CHUBB. If you receive industry publications CHUBB almost had a page reserved monthly for public appologies (and the odd payout)
Our system is a little different to US but hope he does get a payout.
And QLD is different to NSW
KK's one about how only a small number etc, is true mostly. Being a former foundation member of ASIAL myself, and the person who would've had to pay out if a staff did bash someone, the NSW overhaul of the Industry was a complete joke. A toothless tiger that turned blind eyes where they could to CHUBB. If you receive industry publications CHUBB almost had a page reserved monthly for public appologies (and the odd payout)
Our system is a little different to US but hope he does get a payout.
And QLD is different to NSW
After Sam's "incident", I've got pretty interested in the way this industry is run. As KK says, most bouncers aren't aggro idiots, but most isn't really good enough, is it? Bouncer violence is just far common, and it's clear that there's a substantial proportion of the industry that has this cowboy mentality.
There are 50% more security guards in NSW than police, although the powers that bouncers can exercise in premises is actually greater than Police. The levels of education and skills training for what is, when you think about it, a complex job, if it's done right, are pretty pissweak. Bouncers with criminal records get jobs far too easily, as was the case with the guy who has been charged with Sam's assault. Most people involved in body bulding, notorious for use of steroids, work as bouncers. Anecdotally, drug use is rife in this group.
So, what we have is a minimally regulated and controlled industry, staffed largely by people with minimal or no professional education and training, where a criminal record of violence is not a barrier, where roids and drugs are commonplace, employed for shitty wages to do a complex job where the safety of the public is constantly under threat. That's pretty poor.
The legal situation makes it even worse. Most bouncers are not employed by the venues directly but through security contractors. They do this partly because when you contract someone to do a job for you, you are no longer liable for the damages they cause. The security companies mostly subcontract again to the individual guard. They are rarely insured, and even if they are, if they commit a criminal act this voids the insurance policy.
If you are going to sue someone, you need to know that the person you are suing has enough money to pay you out, otherwise all you get left with is a legal bill and bankrupt defendant. What I what to do is sue the club - they are the ones I am angry at. All I may be able to do is sue some loser doing with no assets and no insurance, who, if he is found guilty, will probably be a guest of the government for a while. It all sucks, I think.
There are 50% more security guards in NSW than police, although the powers that bouncers can exercise in premises is actually greater than Police. The levels of education and skills training for what is, when you think about it, a complex job, if it's done right, are pretty pissweak. Bouncers with criminal records get jobs far too easily, as was the case with the guy who has been charged with Sam's assault. Most people involved in body bulding, notorious for use of steroids, work as bouncers. Anecdotally, drug use is rife in this group.
So, what we have is a minimally regulated and controlled industry, staffed largely by people with minimal or no professional education and training, where a criminal record of violence is not a barrier, where roids and drugs are commonplace, employed for shitty wages to do a complex job where the safety of the public is constantly under threat. That's pretty poor.
The legal situation makes it even worse. Most bouncers are not employed by the venues directly but through security contractors. They do this partly because when you contract someone to do a job for you, you are no longer liable for the damages they cause. The security companies mostly subcontract again to the individual guard. They are rarely insured, and even if they are, if they commit a criminal act this voids the insurance policy.
If you are going to sue someone, you need to know that the person you are suing has enough money to pay you out, otherwise all you get left with is a legal bill and bankrupt defendant. What I what to do is sue the club - they are the ones I am angry at. All I may be able to do is sue some loser doing with no assets and no insurance, who, if he is found guilty, will probably be a guest of the government for a while. It all sucks, I think.
Mostly correct there Grazza.
To own a Security Company in NSW you need to hold a master license, be a member of an Industry association eg ASIAL NECA etc, supply proof of workers comp insurance and public and product liability for at least $10M, an be an Aussie. My collegue got knocked back for still being a Kiwi officially. All employees who must hold individual licences must supply proof of completing the required course(s) have a criminal check done, and be finger printed. A DUI conviction means no licence. These day here in NSW the licencing Sgt no longer approaves or knocks back applicant, SIR (security industry registry) does the work, which is another public service sector who do little more than data entry.
If a pub hires a company to do their security then the owner or primary contractor "if they sub out the work" is liable legally and otherwise. However in the above case, the injured party if taking civil action would do so firstly again the publican for failing to adequately provide a safe...., and a second suit against the owner of the Security Firm. So the publican may escpae any criminal charges hence protecting his liquor license, but may get taken to the cleaners unless he could prove matters were well beyond his control. If a security guard gets bashed then the publican can be liable as well as the employer for both failing to provide a safe working enviroment. The new regs gave the insurance Cos in NSw an excuse to increase their premiums by up to 10 fold. Some companies are self insuring and others have used Lloyds of London
And I've taken action against entities, but all they did was liquidate and return to NZ so yep, I got put on the creditors list and may get 10c in the dollar if I'm lucky, but as they had no assets when the sheriff visited, all I've gotten so far is a legal bill
To own a Security Company in NSW you need to hold a master license, be a member of an Industry association eg ASIAL NECA etc, supply proof of workers comp insurance and public and product liability for at least $10M, an be an Aussie. My collegue got knocked back for still being a Kiwi officially. All employees who must hold individual licences must supply proof of completing the required course(s) have a criminal check done, and be finger printed. A DUI conviction means no licence. These day here in NSW the licencing Sgt no longer approaves or knocks back applicant, SIR (security industry registry) does the work, which is another public service sector who do little more than data entry.
If a pub hires a company to do their security then the owner or primary contractor "if they sub out the work" is liable legally and otherwise. However in the above case, the injured party if taking civil action would do so firstly again the publican for failing to adequately provide a safe...., and a second suit against the owner of the Security Firm. So the publican may escpae any criminal charges hence protecting his liquor license, but may get taken to the cleaners unless he could prove matters were well beyond his control. If a security guard gets bashed then the publican can be liable as well as the employer for both failing to provide a safe working enviroment. The new regs gave the insurance Cos in NSw an excuse to increase their premiums by up to 10 fold. Some companies are self insuring and others have used Lloyds of London
And I've taken action against entities, but all they did was liquidate and return to NZ so yep, I got put on the creditors list and may get 10c in the dollar if I'm lucky, but as they had no assets when the sheriff visited, all I've gotten so far is a legal bill
Grazza, I am not an admitted practitioner but have legal qualifications and have general knowledge of the law in this area.
While these contractual relationships may be used in an attempt to limit liability, they won't always, as it always depends on the circumstances. The owners of such premises still have a duty of care toward patrons and if they made no enquiry about the qualifications or certifications of a contracted security company they may not have met the standard this duty requires and therefore be negligent. The more defendants you can join to the issue the better chance of success. They will probably happily start implicating each other.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/qld/ ... ova1995227 it provides help to victims but there are limits though the advantage is that if the convicted cannot pay all or part of the any award made you can apply to the state to pay it. You also can not ask for an award of costs in relation to making the claim, anyway this is something you might want to explore further and seek advice on, but if you do, you need to engage the services of someone that specialises in this area, an injury compensation specialist - a real ambulance chaser
Your local solicitor won't be it. Grazza I wish you and Sammy well and good luck.
Without knowing the facts here or doing any research, I'll make a couple of comments. The security companies can be found liable vicariously for criminal conduct (there is plenty of legal precedent) and liable for damages if this occurred within the course of the bouncer's employment. That question will hinge on whether they've properly directed or trained him. Secondly, they could be also found negligent if they have not properly screened their employees or contractors, as it would be forseeable that this kind of thing could happen if unsuitable types were employed/contracted. This incident falls well within the scope of liability, which simply means it is the kind of thing you could expect. Whether they have insurance doesn't matter so much as whether they have reachable assets.grazza wrote:...
The legal situation makes it even worse. Most bouncers are not employed by the venues directly but through security contractors. They do this partly because when you contract someone to do a job for you, you are no longer liable for the damages they cause. The security companies mostly subcontract again to the individual guard. They are rarely insured, and even if they are, if they commit a criminal act this voids the insurance policy.
While these contractual relationships may be used in an attempt to limit liability, they won't always, as it always depends on the circumstances. The owners of such premises still have a duty of care toward patrons and if they made no enquiry about the qualifications or certifications of a contracted security company they may not have met the standard this duty requires and therefore be negligent. The more defendants you can join to the issue the better chance of success. They will probably happily start implicating each other.
Knowing whether there are any reachable assets is a major consideration, after all, the gist of all civil action is to recover damages ($$) - it is not always an easy question to know the answer to. You can find out but it takes resources which cost money. Pretty easy to rack up $40,000 in legal and investigation fees for a day in court. Hopefully this means Sammy is doing much better and he'll have no permanent injury and this leads you to questioning whether it is worth pursuing. All states have a criminal inuries compensation schemes, in QLD it is enacted and administered through the Criminal Offence Victims Act 1995If you are going to sue someone, you need to know that the person you are suing has enough money to pay you out, otherwise all you get left with is a legal bill and bankrupt defendant. What I what to do is sue the club - they are the ones I am angry at. All I may be able to do is sue some loser doing with no assets and no insurance, who, if he is found guilty, will probably be a guest of the government for a while. It all sucks, I think.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/qld/ ... ova1995227 it provides help to victims but there are limits though the advantage is that if the convicted cannot pay all or part of the any award made you can apply to the state to pay it. You also can not ask for an award of costs in relation to making the claim, anyway this is something you might want to explore further and seek advice on, but if you do, you need to engage the services of someone that specialises in this area, an injury compensation specialist - a real ambulance chaser
Your local solicitor won't be it. Grazza I wish you and Sammy well and good luck.-
kreepykrawly
- Owl status
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- Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:03 pm
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Life as a doorman
My last job as a bouncer i worked at Harbord Hilton BY MYSELF !!! during The State of Origin Game 2 years ago. If anyone has been to the Harbord Hilton on the State of origin game night they will know how f-cking busy it is.3 fights that night.
I was and still haven't been paid for working that night and the 3 previous nights before that. That was 2 years ago
.
Why ? because the cockhead owner of Tri-paragon Security went bankrupt in some scam to avoid paying the Tax man some money.
Its a sh-t life for sh-t pay. full stop. They can have it.
My last job as a bouncer i worked at Harbord Hilton BY MYSELF !!! during The State of Origin Game 2 years ago. If anyone has been to the Harbord Hilton on the State of origin game night they will know how f-cking busy it is.3 fights that night.
I was and still haven't been paid for working that night and the 3 previous nights before that. That was 2 years ago
. Why ? because the cockhead owner of Tri-paragon Security went bankrupt in some scam to avoid paying the Tax man some money.
Its a sh-t life for sh-t pay. full stop. They can have it.
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