Ask Carroll

[alakaboo]

The greatest example is champion snowboarder and skateboardr Shaun White. Unbelieveable board skills. Bulk money and time. Came to it as an adult.
He's OK, he's kind of good. But he's just got that awkward quality that all adult beginners have.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8677081.

I don't actually think board skills translate all that well to surfing. Weighting, speed generation and edge control are completely different.
Especially when he's largely a halfpipe rider.

Saw some Norwegian big mountain riders on their second day ever surfing in Sumbawa, they were pretty fcuking impressive.

[Beanpole]

Gee thanks ctd. You hit exactly what I was wondering about. When I was getting organized to go to Bali last time I was checking out where we might like to stay on the east coast and I was kind of surprised to see all these dutch and german surfing lodges cateriong to basically beginners and videos running through the difficulty levels of different breaks on Lombok for instance. It was kind of funny on one level and cringe worthy on the same level but it started me thinking how funny it was that doing this on that scale would be a major source of derision in Australia. A large number of surfing guides for example set the bar pretty high as far as what would be considered a good wave and actively put sh*t on a lot of intermediate level places that in reality the majority of surfers would enjoy surfing. Fair enough for the initiated but looking at people like you in the line up these days I think its inevitable that "surf culture" will broaden to cater for the market.

As far as mags go surfing mags are as esoteric as you can get, youre right. I can hardly think of another type of publication that is so indecipherable to the uninitiated. That's the other thing I was wondering about. How do they make any money?

[alakaboo]

Inflating their numbers of key demographics to advertisers.

[Beanpole]

[Nick Carroll]

But I've always wondered why aren't surf mags (or at least one surf mag) more like golf or fishing mags. Pick up a golf magazine and it will have a few interviews with pros and up and comers, maybe someone behind the scenes, sort of similar to surfing mags. But then, and this is the big difference, you get a series of articles about technique, tips, ways to improve. How to read a green or where flathead like to sit. Proper gear reviews, not just 200 words. Why don't surfing mags cover how to surf/improve your surfing, 10 tips to improve your duck dive, how to read a beach, what all the bits of the board do and mean etc etc

Well clearly you should buy my own very super customised surf skills book, How To Surf Your Best.

Actually there's quite a few publications and online how to surf resources, however 90% of them are shit.

Not sure that I've asked a question of Nick (embarrassing given that I've hardly ever posted, but the 'lurkers start contributing' thread has inspired me). Hopefully there are some issues you can comment on - perhaps is it still valid to sell/market/treat surfing on the basis that it is an ('imaginary') community (ie you are a 'surfer' - as defined by 'surfers' - and therefore on the inside and part of the community, or not a surfer and therefore on the outside and not to be listened to) when so many surfers nowdays identify as 'someone who enjoys surfing' rather than 'as a surfer'? Is there, as beanpole alluded to, a difference between how this is seen in Australia and in Europe (and perhaps other places) - is Europe more relaxed about the culture thing? Maybe this is the reverse to your earlier discussion about losing the obsession - what if it never was an obsession - where do you sit in surfing culture (nowhere, perhaps - and possibly justifiably).

Well yes, exactly. Where DOES the casual, non-obsessed, non-surf-saturated surfer sit? I would reckon a fair way out on the shoulder.

Look, if you want to be a really really good surfer, it's like anything else -- a degree of obsession is not just likely, it's almost inevitable. Nobody can spend thousands of hours doing something in their youth and athletic prime and not go a bit deeper into it than might be altogether good for them.

But that's how it is. I know plenty of obsessive surfers from Britain, France, Spain et al. They're probably more obsessive than I ever was; I mean here in Oz we have the great gift of 100 years of surfing and beachgoing, so it's kinda part of the furniture to spend a lot of time surfing.

So I don't think European people are immune to the surf obsession. (ha ha by the way, French people relaxed about "culture", think about that one a bit!) I do suspect most adult start-ups pretty much are. The time for that kind of obsession has passed them by.

But maybe the "people who enjoy surfing", happy, well-off, intelligent adults that they may be, ARE a bit further away -- a comfortable distance perhaps -- from the visceral in surfing. Visceral, what do I mean. hmmm, being 21 years old and paddling out to Pipe on solid days in order to take set waves, that is visceral. Surfing Teahupo'o and getting your eye in so you relax in the lineup and begin to really FEEL the energy under those waves. Taking your 50 wipeouts at a great surf spot just so you pay your dues. That's where the surfing obsession leads you and it's not about enjoyment at that point, it's about your blood and guts, adrenalin, fear, stoke.

When you're in that frame, dead set, you are right at the source of surf culture, right IN it, and you really couldn't give a fcuk about the casual surfer or anyone else either, except maybe the guys in it with you.

Same with the 14 year old kids who like looking at surf mags and watch their heroes go round in the WCT events, they really couldn't give a fcuk about anyone's cultural disapproval. Surfing's not an adult pursuit. You don't like that stuff 'cause you're an adult -- well, maybe that's a shame.

[xe]

The greatest example is champion snowboarder and skateboardr Shaun White. Unbelieveable board skills. Bulk money and time. Came to it as an adult.
He's OK, he's kind of good. But he's just got that awkward quality that all adult beginners have.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8677081.

I don't actually think board skills translate all that well to surfing. Weighting, speed generation and edge control are completely different.
Especially when he's largely a halfpipe rider.

Saw some Norwegian big mountain riders on their second day ever surfing in Sumbawa, they were pretty fcuking impressive.

Danny Way or Terje Hankonsen but they are incredible athletes.

[Beanpole]

The reality is theres more and more of the people your talking about, Nick.

I just don't know how come no one caters to them in an effective way.
Reminds me of the greek fish and chip shop owner who used to be up the road.
Went in and tried to buy a bbq chicken for dinner or something and there was a young asian guy working there who was keen to give me some suggestions and cook up something but Theo basically told him not to worry about it as he was more interested in selling 5 potato scallops to some kid.
Theres a coffee shop there now.

[JaxonB]

Well clearly you should buy my own very super customised surf skills book, How To Surf Your Best.

I've been looking for this for a while and even bought one off a book website, they said it was available but after i paid they told me it wasn't available at the moment.

[Nick Carroll]

The reality is theres more and more of the people your talking about, Nick.

I just don't know how come no one caters to them in an effective way.

Well yeah that's an issue for sure, right across the whole picture

Like until very recently almost no surf camps/resorts had much in the way of safety protocols and resusc gear or training. It was a sort of given that surf trips were in the vein of 1970s style surf travel, where you just winged it and nobody was gonna break a neck or have a heart attack or whatever. That's just not appropriate when your customer base is changing to older, wealthier, less hardcore people who aren't a bit mad.

But in other ways and areas, surfing businesses have already adapted, like with central distribution boardmaking, cheaper and better start-up surfboards, surf schools, etc

Even the big surf companies are trying to cross those lines between hard-core surf thinking and the more relaxed surf to enjoy milieu, look at their taglines, "Enjoy" (Quik), "Life's Better In..." (Bong) They're worried that being all hardcore, "only a surfer" etc, is a bit alienating

Maybe it is, trouble for them is, it's what made them cool in the first place.

Re the surf media, yeah there is a big resistance in most surf mags to even admit to the presence of this vast new pool of surfers, I think 'cause it's just so different to anything which has occurred in many surf mag staff and businesses' experience. They forget that the original modern surf media was built on the back of a similar start-up boom -- the Australian and US baby-boom takeup of the early 1960s. Go back to some of those mags and you'll see quite a bit of editorial that's close to what ctd is looking for: info about surf spots, how to do this and that, etc

There's a lot of opportunities for surf businesses in this area, I sense however that quite a few of 'em are semi ripoffs, or just weird, like that crew who wanted to charge surfie c $10k for a three month surf instructor course

Anyway the history of surfing is pretty much a history of booms, drop-offs, and renaissances, I think a fair few of those german and russian learners in Bali will get hooked, have kids who start surfing at three years old, get obsessed, and end up being pretty incredible surfers down the track.

[Nick Carroll]

Well clearly you should buy my own very super customised surf skills book, How To Surf Your Best.

I've been looking for this for a while and even bought one off a book website, they said it was available but after i paid they told me it wasn't available at the moment.

Yeah sorry about that, I think the last print run sold off, we'll do another one for sure

[Nick Carroll]

yeah OK, have you got $75,000?

[steve shearer]

But I've always wondered why aren't surf mags (or at least one surf mag) more like golf or fishing mags. Pick up a golf magazine and it will have a few interviews with pros and up and comers, maybe someone behind the scenes, sort of similar to surfing mags. But then, and this is the big difference, you get a series of articles about technique, tips, ways to improve. How to read a green or where flathead like to sit. Proper gear reviews, not just 200 words.

Not so sure about that one ctd.

I dunno about the Golf Mags but I read religiously and comprehensively all the fishing mags.

Mostly, like the surfing mags, the gear reviews are pure advertorial. IE A manufacturer has given product and paid to have their product reviewed. Like surfing, you'll find the real gear reviews in fishing forums where actual users who have ponied up cash report on their experiences.

Surfboard reviews in surf mags are what JK Galbraith would call a not so innocent fraud. IE, they are advertising copy, not unbiased reviews.
Thats no great evil, just part of the modern world. More and more of what we used to call journalism is press release and advertorial. Surf mags have been at the bleeding edge of that modern phenomena for a good while.

There is some occasional good writing in fishing mags but the vast majority is pure dross. Rod Harrison in Aus, Dick Lewers and begrudgingly Steve Starling can string a sentence together with Harrison's writing standing head and shoulders above the rest.
In the states, there is some top notch fishing writing. Zane Grey historically, Norman Maclean ("in my family, there is no clear line between religion and fly-fishing".), Hemingway (of course), Lefty Kreh etc etc. That genre often overlaps with a kind of uniquely American naturalism that stems from the transcendalists (Thoreau, Whitman, Emerson).

It seems to me that most of the fishing mags are aimed at enthusiasts at the least and not dabblers.
Same as surfing mags.

Question is are the beginner surfers, the dabblers, the moms surfing once a week even interested in a surf media? My experience says no.
They do it for fun, it doesn't necessarily define them and they don't seek out greater involvement via surf mags or whatever. There's just too much other media and things happening in their lives.

Sure the Euro's want their practical advice on how to surf Ekas but when they go home and start real life again?

[Natho]

Yeh Steve your advertorial point re surfboard reviews in surf mags is exactly why I stopped even buying the board design issues. Basically every board is reviewed as being great ( or fully sick). That said I understand that these reviews can not happen without the money and advertising of the board brands listed in the review. Most magazines work that way. Also I guess board reviews will always be subjective.

Ah fly fishing. There's another sport that is harder than it looks. Got a pro about to give me casting lessons. Will see how I go. He told me that we need to start on land before going near the water.

[petulance]

Sure the Euro's want their practical advice on how to surf Ekas but when they go home and start real life again?

Inside Ekas was an easy wave to work out but I didn't get Outside Ekas. Some Euros I know try to surf year round (even in Sweden!), some only get to do it on their yearly trip to Indo.

[PeepeelaPew]

...

[Natho]

Yeh know Morsey. Heading out with Justin Duggan when he gets back from Weipa. He is a gun and came at the recommendation of Starlo himself.

[Trev]

Well clearly you should buy my own very super customised surf skills book, How To Surf Your Best.

I've been looking for this for a while and even bought one off a book website, they said it was available but after i paid they told me it wasn't available at the moment.

Yeah sorry about that, I think the last print run sold off, we'll do another one for sure

Did you do an updated version Nick?
I seem to remember seeing a copy with something like that on the cover.

[Nick Carroll]

Did you do an updated version Nick?
I seem to remember seeing a copy with something like that on the cover.

Last one was HTSYB Volume Two. I think it had some updated sticker on it but it was a different book from HTSYB volume one.

Haven't done three yet, thinking about it at present