Women should 'just do it'?

[Kyles]

Many of you probably saw sex therapist Bettina Ardnt on TV and in the papers a few weeks back promoting her new book 'Sex Diaries: Why Women Go Off Sex and Other Bedroom Battles'. For those of you who didn't see it here is a link to an article that outlines what she thinks:
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/opinion/editorial/general/women-need-to-say-yes-to-sex/1447294.aspx?storypage=0

She states that 'women's right to say no has been enshrined in our cultural history since the 1960s when women's sexual rights became a rallying cry. As terrible stories of marital rape and sexual violence claimed the public's attention, women's right to refuse sex became fundamental to decent relations between the genders.
The new rule was that sex must wait until women are well and truly in the mood. But that was where we went wrong. The assumption that women need to want sex to enjoy it has proved a really damaging sexual idea, one that has wrought havoc in relationships for the past 40 years'.

She's follows on by saying that even if women don't really feel like having sex, they should do so anyway, because 'once the canoe is in the water, everyone starts happily paddling'. She also states that it is part of a 'wifes duty' to please her husband

Obviously her views have outraged a lot of people and there has been quite a strong backlash about the issue. For example (this is fairly extreme view, but gives you an idea what some people think)
http://newmatilda.com/2009/03/04/wife-guide-marital-harmony

But what do you guys think? Do you think women should 'just do it', and both partners will ultimately benefit from their increased sexual intimacy? Why do women (sometimes) lose interest in sex?

This currently is not a problem for me (before you all start going silly and making up stuff about iggy and I). But it is a topic I think is interesting and has caused some heated debate. I have my own opinion about this but would like to hear what you have to say first.

Discuss.

[Deesee]

Remember, NO means NO!, but they probably should just do it.

Even when it's not wanted, if you persist with the task at hand, thing's get slippery and the complaint can turn into a thank you (i tell myself this).

If complaining persists, then tighten the ....... woops, better not go there.....

[offshore1]

iggy? any thought you'd like to share re. how squicking would come into play in this.....hard to get the missus in the mood for a good squick i'd imagine.

[Ringmaster]

Blokes who are partnered up with chicks who 'go off' sex indefinitely should probably have a good look at themselves in most cases.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact you:

-have developed a gut and lost muscle tone and pride in your appearance generally
-dress and act like a slob once the courtship stage is over
-are a dud root with no quality love making skills
-come onto your chick with a 2 day rough growth and stinking breath
-don't pay enough attention to your chick apart from when you want a root
-don't do the 'little things' to get her in the mood (take her out/buy a gift etc)
-are a filthy pig/unhygienic around the home
-are a dud root with no quality love making skills
-don't include your girl in your social life
-argue over minor shit on a regular basis
-are a dud root with no quality love making skills

If non of that applies, then maybe the chick has issues after pumping out kids. I wouldn't know about that as I/we don't have any.

Or maybe your girl has discovered the grass is greener somewhere else............

[Deesee]

Or maybe you just take yourself off to the hookers and get sraight to the point without all the carry on.

Whilst my wrist was busted, r00ting wasn't the most comfortable activity to pursue. I decided to learn a little about my wife and humored myself by getting into what is known as "conversations" with her and actually listen. It turns out that my wife has a great personality and has dreams and aspirations. I didn't do too bad.

Kyles, is it correct to assume that - "if the pink is down, go the brown", and "one in the bum, no harm done", is how a lady thinks? My wife tends to differ...

[iggy]

quite a while ago i read the John Gray book "Mars and Venus in the Bedroom: A Guide to Lasting Romance and Passion"...
it's not a bad book, pretty succinct, basic, reductionist, and to the point...
although much of it's common sense, it's good a re-iteration/reality-check with some powerful messages amongst it all...
- a woman needs love to open up to sex, a man needs sex to open up to love
- men are like fire, women are like water (fire's quick to put out with water, but water takes a lot longer boil with fire)
- sexually, men are like cups forever needing to be emptied , whereas women are like empty cups needing to be filled prior to empty
- for men, sex puts them in touch with their feminine side, allowing them to escape their desensitised robot-like minds (it goes on to explain this from a fairly primoridal perspective, male is/was the hunter, etc...)

[steve shearer]

quite a while ago i read the John Gray book "Mars and Venus in the Bedroom: A Guide to Lasting Romance and Passion"...
it's not a bad book, pretty succinct, basic, reductionist, and to the point...
although much of it's common sense, it's good a re-iteration/reality-check with some powerful messages amongst it all...
- a woman needs love to open up to sex, a man needs sex to open up to love
- men are like fire, women are like water (fire's quick to put out with water, but water takes a lot longer boil with fire)
- sexually, men are like cups forever needing to be emptied , whereas women are like empty cups needing to be filled prior to empty
- for men, sex puts them in touch with their feminine side, allowing them to escape their desensitised robot-like minds (it goes on to explain this from a fairly primoridal perspective, male is/was the hunter, etc...)

I guess if this shite is peddled by enough pop psychologists then people will believe it.
The assumption that man is basically a hunter etc etc hasn't been true since the industrial revolution.
Modern Urban man is basically a neutered robot who is so far from any basic instinctive drives it's a complete joke to even suggest it.
They spend way too much time in front of a screen and despite internet tough talk I'd say your average pommy chick would have more ticker than any urban metrosexual.
Our basic instincts and drives have become so sublimated into vicarious pursuits that they've lost even the faintest echo in "modern" man.
I hear way more chicks complaining they can't find a good root then the other way around.

[Hatchman]

Short answer Kyles: no I don't think they should.

If you've gotten to that point I dare say your relationship is heading into troubled waters.

Iggy and Ringa make a lot of sense, a relationship is a lot of things when you start to break it down, but most importantly you have to work at it, you have to talk a lot and you have to learn to compromise at the right times (but not all the time).

Sex is important to any lasting relationship but so is communication and mutual respect and kindness to one another.

[Spoon]

Short answer Kyles: no I don't think they should.

If you've gotten to that point I dare say your relationship is heading into troubled waters.

Iggy and Ringa make a lot of sense, a relationship is a lot of things when you start to break it down, but most importantly you have to work at it, you have to talk a lot and you have to learn to compromise at the right times (but not all the time).

Sex is important to any lasting relationship but so is communication and mutual respect and kindness to one another.

I always find Pernod to be beneficial to a loving relationship. That and doing lots of chores

[iggy]

i hear what you're saying re: the book Steve...
it's reductionist (and inherently dismissive of the grander scale of an all encompassing argument in being so), but all the same, urban metrosexuality or not, male's instinctive drive to compete(hunt if you like?) is still there (be it in the modern world/market-place or otherwise), and is a cause of stress and emotional desensitisation, and sex still serves as a great escape from it all, and still serves as a means of getting in touch with your softer side...

[Kyles]

Blokes who are partnered up with chicks who 'go off' sex indefinitely should probably have a good look at themselves in most cases.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact you:

-have developed a gut and lost muscle tone and pride in your appearance generally
-dress and act like a slob once the courtship stage is over
-are a dud root with no quality love making skills
-come onto your chick with a 2 day rough growth and stinking breath
-don't pay enough attention to your chick apart from when you want a root
-don't do the 'little things' to get her in the mood (take her out/buy a gift etc)
-are a filthy pig/unhygienic around the home
-are a dud root with no quality love making skills
-don't include your girl in your social life
-argue over minor shit on a regular basis
-are a dud root with no quality love making skills

Agreed. Why must it be the womens fault that there is not enough sex in the relationship? Just because they 'aren't in the mood' it doesn't mean it is purely their fault.
Her argument is so simplistic and completely fails to look at the reasons why a women would not want to have sex with her partner. By advocating that women should just do it, even if they don't really feel like it, doesn't fix anything and probably just makes a whole another level of resentment in the relationship.
I would hate to have sex if I didnt feel like having it. And it can't be much of a turn on for men to have sex with a women thats not really into it.

[oldman]

Short answer Kyles: no I don't think they should.

If you've gotten to that point I dare say your relationship is heading into troubled waters.

An apparently sensible suggestion from a younger man who has just recently had his first kid. Be careful here.

Iggy and Ringa make a lot of sense,.........

Now you know you are treading on thin ice.

Sex is important to any lasting relationship but so is communication and mutual respect and kindness to one another.

Chicken and egg problem here hatchman.

So here goes. I had a conversation with the missus about this, first asking have there been times when she really didn't feel like having sex with me but she did anyway (I knew the answer long ago BTW). She said yes she had, so I swatted her with the copy of the good weekend.

Ringer is definitely right about keeping yourself in some shape, and bathing and brushing teeth occasionally, but all those are not the base reasons for sexual indifference in a woman, they are after-the-fact rationalisations. Good ones BTW.

For a man, not getting sex regularly means you are being serially rejected. There can only be one outcome for that. Loss of communication, tenderness and genuine attraction which result from serial rejection then cause increased distance between partners, therefore a vicous circle.

Another study suggested that women stop having sex because they are always doing the housework and are so tired. Again, this is an after-the-fact rationalisation. To test this theory, start doing all the washing up and other housework and see what effect this has. You may be lucky and find there is an increase in sex for a while, but no matter how much housework you do they will revert to type.

It is mostly based on a fundamentally different value attached to sex. For the vast majority of men, sex is at the very epicentre of the relationship. While love, compatability etc all come into it, men do not believe that a woman loves them when she is continually saying no. If women only thought about this for a few seconds they would realise they are kidding themselves thinking otherwise.

For women sex is generally a sort of non-essential add-on to the relationship which can be dispensed with. This is not true for the early stage of relationships, but remember, Bettina Arndt was studying couples who had been together for at least 4 years, which seems to be a significant time period for a relationship.

So here's the thing, which I told my wife before we got married and reminded her in our conversation. If a woman continually rejects her partner, then she forfeits any right to ask him to remain monogamous. Monogamy rightly implies an active sex life, otherwise it is celibacy. It doesn't take much thinking to realise that expecting a partner to remain monogamous while not putting out is monstrously unfair.

In her study Bettina highlighted a man who was getting sex about twice a year, and an uninvolved little effort it was from his wife. He had two kids with her, and was in a state of despair about the relationship. Oh really, who'd a thunk it!

I would have advised him to address the issue or get the hell out.

If you are not happy with your sex life in a relationship then either fix the problem or get the hell out. Misery lies in every other direction. You can't just gloss over this one.

So yes Kyles, unless the man stops showing interest, the woman should continue to put out even if she doesn't feel like it. If she doesn't feel like it, she should start working on plans to make her feel like it, or at least allow her partner to coax her into it in a nice way and enjoy the coaxing.

And finally, when the woman puts out, don't go around thinking you have just provided your husband with a gift that he will have to work for, you just saved your relationship and no thoughts of quid pro quo should be entered into.

Men, stand up for yourself FFS.

Sorry Kyles, just read your response to ringa so you may not like this one. I'm not saying you have to root on demand, although there is nothing wrong with that, but you do have to be 'available', regularly.

[marcus]

I know a girl that was married and the sex dried up, no pun intended.
they got a divorce and she stopped taking the pill and all of a sudden her libido came back.
when she was married she couldn't think of why she didn't have any interest in sex.
maybe,if she stopped taking the pill beforehand, it could have saved the marriage?
now she is so bloody horny its scary, her man is having to provide sex for her when he is too tired or not interested.
the things pills do to your body.

same with anti depressants
i know some girls that cant orgasm at all when they take their meds.

but, no imo, women should not just do it.

edit,just read oldman's post which has some great points of view.

[TrevG]

I guess it has to do with what sort of relationship you have.
Speaking from personal experience (and please understand, for me this is really getting out there to even talk about this outside the home), giving pleasure can be as rewarding as getting it.
Obviously in a perfect world, pleasure is mutual but there are times when, for one or the other, it's more about caring for your partner. And believe me, I'm not saying here that "the woman should just go along with it"
There are also times when it's definitely NOT the right time and in a good, working relationship, the partners will recognise that, too.
The over-riding thing is "No" means "No".
At which time some gentle snuggling is called for.

[oldman]

I.......... and she stopped taking the pill and all of a sudden her libido came back

marcus, huge factor. Most couples decide that the pill is the best way to manage birth control, but the pill adversely affects libido in about *942% of all women who take it, according to reliable academic studies.

Wait and see what effect 2 children under 5 has on the libido of women.

Strangely, those same academic studies found that nothing other than advancing years has any effect at all on the libido of men, and sometimes not even that. These studies included factors such as earthquakes, illness, death, nuclear war, holocaust, famine, and the return of Jesus. None recorded the slightest change in men's libido.

* OK, that was a made up statistic. Did you know that 87% of all statistics quoted were just made up!

[munch]

the pill adversely affects libido in about *942% of all women who take it, according to reliable academic studies.

942% is a rather large % I assume it effects the libido of men, women not on the pill, animals, plant life ... given that it effects 9.5x the number of people on the pill.

This gives me an idea to start another topic "THE SNIP" since this is being discussed at home atm - I'm all for it, but the missus is against it for various reasons, one being, what if she dies and I hook up with someone else and they want to have kids ( for some reason, me not wanting to have any more kids doesn't come into it - women!)
Me, I'd rather be the one who has the libido affected if there's a slip up, as oldmans wondering's, above remind me of before we had kids, when the missus was on the pill and how much that effects her - libido, pimples ...

[oldman]

942% is a rather large % I assume it effects the libido of men, women not on the pill, animals, plant life ... given that it effects 9.5x the number of people on the pill.

Read the fine print munch.

This gives me an idea to start another topic "THE SNIP" since this is being discussed at home atm -

An interesting idea, I have heard that it has quite a dramatic effect on libido, but strangely I heard the opposite effect for two different guys???????

[Kyles]

So here goes. I had a conversation with the missus about this, first asking have there been times when she really didn't feel like having sex with me but she did anyway (I knew the answer long ago BTW). She said yes she had, so I swatted her with the copy of the good weekend.

Ringer is definitely right about keeping yourself in some shape, and bathing and brushing teeth occasionally, but all those are not the base reasons for sexual indifference in a woman, they are after-the-fact rationalisations. Good ones BTW.

For a man, not getting sex regularly means you are being serially rejected. There can only be one outcome for that. Loss of communication, tenderness and genuine attraction which result from serial rejection then cause increased distance between partners, therefore a vicous circle.

Another study suggested that women stop having sex because they are always doing the housework and are so tired. Again, this is an after-the-fact rationalisation. To test this theory, start doing all the washing up and other housework and see what effect this has. You may be lucky and find there is an increase in sex for a while, but no matter how much housework you do they will revert to type.

It is mostly based on a fundamentally different value attached to sex. For the vast majority of men, sex is at the very epicentre of the relationship. While love, compatability etc all come into it, men do not believe that a woman loves them when she is continually saying no. If women only thought about this for a few seconds they would realise they are kidding themselves thinking otherwise.

For women sex is generally a sort of non-essential add-on to the relationship which can be dispensed with. This is not true for the early stage of relationships, but remember, Bettina Arndt was studying couples who had been together for at least 4 years, which seems to be a significant time period for a relationship.

So here's the thing, which I told my wife before we got married and reminded her in our conversation. If a woman continually rejects her partner, then she forfeits any right to ask him to remain monogamous. Monogamy rightly implies an active sex life, otherwise it is celibacy. It doesn't take much thinking to realise that expecting a partner to remain monogamous while not putting out is monstrously unfair.

In her study Bettina highlighted a man who was getting sex about twice a year, and an uninvolved little effort it was from his wife. He had two kids with her, and was in a state of despair about the relationship. Oh really, who'd a thunk it!

I would have advised him to address the issue or get the hell out.

If you are not happy with your sex life in a relationship then either fix the problem or get the hell out. Misery lies in every other direction. You can't just gloss over this one.

So yes Kyles, unless the man stops showing interest, the woman should continue to put out even if she doesn't feel like it. If she doesn't feel like it, she should start working on plans to make her feel like it, or at least allow her partner to coax her into it in a nice way and enjoy the coaxing.

And finally, when the woman puts out, don't go around thinking you have just provided your husband with a gift that he will have to work for, you just saved your relationship and no thoughts of quid pro quo should be entered into.

Men, stand up for yourself FFS.

Sorry Kyles, just read your response to ringa so you may not like this one. I'm not saying you have to root on demand, although there is nothing wrong with that, but you do have to be 'available', regularly.

I don't dislike your response. I don't think there is a simple, right answer.
You do raise some good points, but it doesn't seem like much of a solution to me.
I guess i'm looking at from a female perspective and I don't think the best answer to the issue is that women should have sex even if they don't feel like it. Wouldn't it be better to look at it in a way that focuses on how women can increase their libido and actually want to have more sex? Which obviously would vary from case to case.
Perhaps women do have a lower libido than men, or have different needs than men, but this doesn't mean they aren't sexual creatures.
Maybe i'm just idealistic, but this seems to make more sense to me.