make stool, not war

Discuss shaping and repairing techniques here.

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diggerdickson
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Re: How about a sticky...

Post by diggerdickson » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:52 pm

guys, try using a set square on the outline, when you push it lightly agianst the edge that yourve carefully sanded down it shows the high spots that the eye cant see, it gets the outline perfect, and I do mean perfect, once you get that right everything naturally follows. :wink:
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Re: How about a sticky...

Post by diggerdickson » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:47 pm

matticus, awesome stuff mate. I dont use a planner on the outline, even though huei wants me to. My confidence isnt high enough yet and I need to master using the planer on a 0 cut to knock off the high spots, but my aim is to use the planner for everything. I use a block of wood with sandpaper to get it perfect.

Your planer issues might be caused by pushing the planner to quickly, I let the planner set the pace mate, but for some really good information on techniques check out the archives on swaylocks, full of awesome information that will really help. Hopefully someone with good experience will pep up hear and give you some advice mate.

Love you enthusiasm and keep it going.
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Re: How about a sticky...

Post by gabsouy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:29 pm

a cheap can of spray paint, a light mist coat [very light] around the outline [ i use red] , nose to tail in one stroke with a surf form or 80grit glued to a block will tidy up the planshape, the red mist will sit in your low spots -like a spray painter uses colour mist as a guide coat when blocking off car panels, light rubbing until the colour has gone- foolproof.....saves a lot of time,pissing around with a square. if youre shaping without lights when finished a light mist all over then a light run over with a block will identify any hi lows-bumps. reduce the cutting depth on that planer and slow down boy.

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Re: How about a sticky...

Post by gabsouy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:49 pm

thse small block planes are good.....but the blade is too wide, i grind the blade to a semi circle so the actual cutting edge is only just wider than the stringer doing this youre only cutting away the stringer and not gouging the foam either side , mark a centre line on top of the plane so you can see youre always on line with the stringer. bit tight trying to plane the stringer down in the nose curve on the deck there are ultra miniture planes for this but i get by with a circle file and use strokes 45 deg to the stringer and about 5 inches in length. dont be to fussy the glassing hides -covers alot. dont try to sand out any deep gouges ,fill them with poly filler or similiar. SWAYLOCKS a fantastic site for info a tips.

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Re: How about a sticky...

Post by pirate_agenda » Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:11 pm

matticus,

not that i'm a pro, but I can see you making the same mistakes i did on my first few, so couple of pointers from seeing what you've done so far:

1. leave a bit more room on the outline next time and clean it up with a planer, then hard blacks. I actually do a very rough handsaw cut leaving about 2cm and clean the outline up with about 15 passes of the planer. Might seem fiddly, but thats what a planer does best - level out bumps. once it makes a cutting buzz the full rail on your planer's lowest setting, you know the outline's pretty smooth. Next rule i run by in the outline, is do not continue to the next step untill you are 100% happy with the outline, as it won't clean up later when you are shaping the rails, it will only get worse when you are screening bumpy bits.
2. you were probly just practising, but try and take away all of your excess foam from the bottom and as little as possible from the deck before shaping in your contours. the board will resist dents ten times better if you've only skimmed the deck plus a couple of passes, as opposed to taking an inch out.
3. i know what you mean about dragging dust along the foam and gouging it as you get further in. I use foam shaping blocks from shapers in hard medium and soft, every few strokes i use the underside of the pad like a little broom to move away dust and avoid gouges.
4. dont use an air compressor to blow the dust off. you might not see it, but they often spit oil and moisture all over your blank, that can become a nightmare come glassing time (think delams and fisheyes for no apparent reason)
5. try and use your planer for everything that it will fit, use it on low cut settings if you dont want to mow too much, ride the shoe over the raised foam neaxt to your last pass, angle the planer. theres some good tips on swaylocks on planer use. for me, the shaping light really went off when i realised the planer was not only faster, but more accurate than sanding. The only parts I don't use the planer for now is the tucked edge rail band (although many do, i find it faster using my surform for this), finishing the rails, bottom concaves and sanding the planer lines out of the deck.
6. If you are sick of one step, don't skip to the next step and think i'll come back to it. just put the tools down and have a break. The better job you do on each stage the easier the next stage is. that follows through to glassing, prepping laps etc as well.
7. Check the blank for warping before you skin it. try and eyeball any warping and clean them up with the planer before you do your full skinning and thinning runs with the planer. it's easier when everything if flat at the start!

I'm no pro and my boards are still far from perfect, but these pointers helped them improve dramatically. good luck and have fun.

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Re: How about a sticky...

Post by diggerdickson » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:08 pm

I use to use acetone, no need for it if you are using uv, I do recommend uv, and yes, huei put me onto hot soapy water as well mate. Steer clear of acetone, it aint good stuff, it works, but aint good stuff in the end run, its just for those of us who are a touch lazy, like my first few attempts at glassing. Im only a beginner, but I tell ya, resin burns when you get it on ya eyebrows, lol, it can stick your toes together, lol, and if you tread in the bucket of resin with ya decent sneekers on there fuC$%d, and so is ya bucket of resin.

Im thinking of a swimming cap next time as im sick of tearing out what little hair I have on the top of my head when the uv resin sets :lol:
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Re: make stool, not war

Post by diggerdickson » Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:33 am

love the name of the thread mate, excellent. I hope some of the guys who have more experience than me can give some pointers in glassing the rails and how you wrap it around tight, because im such a beginner compared to others on here I wont say much on this topic. One thing I do to soak the glass for the rails is when it comes time, fold it back from the rails, get a paint brush, and paint the bloody glass :lol: Many will disagree with me on this method im sure, but I get it soaked, then I fold it back over nice and easy, no hanging threads, then tuck it fu$#ing tight, works a treat for me and no bubbles my friend, but im sure others will pipe in here, im not sure you could do this if not using uv as uv gives you so much time.

Oh by the way, if you fix the roof of your shed, and block out the light, then go close the door to glass, make sure you have a light cause its FUC^KING IMPOSSIBLE to glass in the dark :oops:
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ric_vidal
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Re: make stool, not war

Post by ric_vidal » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:39 am

Matticus, may sound funny but one of the best tools for a planshape cut-out is a circular saw. Their base is solid so keeps a good square cut. Piss the jigsaw off, you'll never keep it square.

Stand one side of the blank and cut the opposite side as close to your line as possible, it is MUCH easier than thinking leaving space and working back down to it with another tool. Make sure you have a solid stand and a well weighted blank. You have to hold the fence up when you cut. Areas where there is a tight curve may need a few slices taken off first.

When finished your cut, any lumps and bumps can be FELT by running the back of sanding board over the outline. Tidy up with a sanding board or Surform®.

Knowledge with thanks to Rich at PURE.

Rails are all about cutting good full length bands first, like most things, less is more. This too will depend on what blank you started with from the outset, some are close tolerance so don't need much removal of foam.

Long strokes, trust your hands, think like water – grasshopper :wink:

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Re: How about a sticky...

Post by pirate_agenda » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:01 am

Matticus Finch wrote:
Wow, great post. You wouldn't happen to have a mate who works as a nurse in the ICU at Wollongong hospital would you? I was pretty groggy after surgery but I was talking with the guy who was looking after me about shaping and boards and he was pretty sold on the mini simmons thing, at the time I remember thinking he was talking about you, he was about to pick one up from Cronulla area from a backyarder I think. He gave me a few surf mags and made a difference to my stay anyway.
Ha yeah I do, he's a great guy. Making his 4th board for him at the moment. it's funny, I've made so many boards for all his friends because he froths on them so hard! him and all his longboard mates have swapped in their 9'6s for 5 - somethings!

- couple more pointers - tape - get the green 3M tape from bunnings. it's more expensive, but 10 x better than the regular crap.
- Kingy's wont be able to sell ya UV, pretty sure he doesn't sell it. Just go easy on the MEKP cat your first go laminating. maybe use 1% instead of the 1.5-2% recommended. it will still go off, will just take longer. And mix up more resin than you need for your first go, because you will waste a lot. for a reg surfboard first go I would mix 800ml of poly per side. now i use about 350g of epoxy per side.
- just get some cheap scissors for your first time. the good ones are like $70 and they cut a lot better, but if you get them stuck with resin, thats $70 down the drain.
- do 6+4 on the deck for your first one, it will be heavier, but stronger, do the 6oz so it stops at the rail apex and the 4 oz as a full rail lap.

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Re: make stool, not war

Post by ric_vidal » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:06 am

Glassing, God watch someone who has done a few thousand, they make it look like a piece of p*ss.

First and foremost, before you even cut your glass, lightly stretch it to conform to the shape of your board, you'll be amazed at how much it wants to sit snuggly to the blank. Then cut your laps. If you fold the glass back all you do is remove this nice bit of conformity you have just created and you will run the risk of more glass strands wanting to come loose.

When you have cut the laps you may see around the middle that there is a likelihood of glass strands coming away, just use your fingers and pull a few away like from a frayed edge.

So my recommendation, sorry Diggs and Wingy, don't fold back the glass… just run a good line of resin the length of the board about 50-100mm away from the rail. Then use your squeegee at an angle and drag it along like a tractor blade so the resin runs over the edge wetting the glass as it flows over, capture the bulk of the resin with your container as you go along the edge.

Any dry spots, simply use your (gloved) finger to roughly wet the underside of the glass or use your squeegee blade as it will have resin on it. You don't have to be overly concerned about every last spot as you are about to squeegee the area anyway so resin will be dragged over the area. When you squeegee down the laps they will get soaked with either you pull down or your long strokes.

Finish up with a small brush running from the centre of the board running back or forward pulling it tight to the blank. Point being, work from the centre OUT so you are pulling onto the board. This will remove excess resin from the lap and any loose strands of glass can be directed back toward the cut lap instead across onto the board itself.

Hope that makes sense, kind of something that needs a video to demonstrate properly so I might just do that.

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Re: How about a sticky...

Post by ric_vidal » Sat Nov 10, 2012 10:16 am

pirate_agenda wrote: - Kingy's wont be able to sell ya UV, pretty sure he doesn't sell it. Just go easy on the MEKP cat your first go laminating. maybe use 1% instead of the 1.5-2% recommended. it will still go off, will just take longer.
P-A, I wouldn't recommend ANY first timer use MEKP, especially as the temp is getting warmer, but if he has to so be it. Especially don't use it if your first shape is looking good.

'Shapers' will have a UV additive if he can't get over to the northern beaches to Dion or Surfblanks.

That said, Matticus, if you are using a decal with large areas of opaque you might need a bit of catalyst in the resin in that area if nowhere else. UV needs to penetrate…

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Re: How about a sticky...

Post by pirate_agenda » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:25 pm

wingnut2443 wrote:
pirate_agenda wrote: ...just get some cheap scissors for your first time. the good ones are like $70 and they cut a lot better, but if you get them stuck with resin, thats $70 down the drain ...
How? I don't have my scissors any where near resin, because the resin comes out only after the cloth is cut ... and then scissors are away ... what am I missing?

I've got a cheap pair that I use for cutting tape, or whatever, and yeah, they've been used with resin on my hands ... but there is no way the cloth scissors will go near the stuff ...

But of acetone and then a good hot soapy water wash sorted the cheap pair.
you're right, they should be put away before the resin comes out.

Sometimes i use them to trim loose strands of glass before i tuck the rails. resin on hands, plus resin on glass = glued together scissors. I don't use acetone at all. it's nasty shit I just don't need lying around for epoxy builds. My brushes I use once and throw out. for $2.38 a set of 2 from bunnings, its not worth the hassle of cleaning them.

My point is though, $70 is a lot to spend on good glassing scissors when cheapies will do. If you were lamming 10 boards a week the $70 would be well spent. so far i have lammed about 30 boards (including lots with carbon) with a set of 5 scissors from aldi that set me back $12 for the 5! just need to take about 1 minute longer each side with regular scissors!

good post by RV above re wetting the laps too, another hint is to paint the rails and lap areas with a small bit of resin before glassing, so you hardly even have to flood your laps! :-o

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Re: make stool, not war

Post by pirate_agenda » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:37 pm

i did my first 6 with traditional PE and MEKP, before switching to epoxy! dont be afraid of mekp for your first time. just have a plan of attack, follow it calmly and go easy on the MEKP! something like this:

- mix small batch of resin (100ml) w/ very low mekp content (0.5%-1%)
- lam your logo and brush the rails with this
- lay out glass
- mix main batch of resin (more MEKP than initial batch - 1-1.5%)
- wet out flats - 3 mins
- flood/wet laps - 5 mins
- squeegee excess resin off deck - 2 mins
- tuck laps - 5 mins
- wet excess dry spots and work out bubbles (hopefully none) - 5 mins

theres 20 minutes from mixing the main batch - with the low MEKP content it should start kicking around 25-30 mins. if you have 2-3% mekp it can kick hard after 10-15 mins.

- watch some pro videos. watch how simple their process is.
- if you're halfway through tucking your laps and the thing starts to kick just used your gloved hand and run it along the length of the rail, tucking it as you go (not as tight this way, but fast f you are in trouble
- remember anything that happens can be fixed with a sand and a patch. it's your first board, nobodies expecting it to look like a museum piece!
- dont worry if it stays tacky, it will fully cure when you hotcoat it.

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Re: How about a sticky...

Post by pirate_agenda » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:50 pm

wingnut2443 wrote:
pirate_agenda wrote: ...My brushes I use once and throw out. for $2.38 a set of 2 from bunnings, its not worth the hassle of cleaning them ...
Good point ... not sure it's a 3-) though .... :wink:

I had really crappy cloth cuts using cheap scissors, and lots of loose strands, with the good ones, clean cut, much neater and only 2 or 3 strands per side ... and, everytime I cut with cheap ones, it would pull the cloth so it ended up 'off skew' on the blank, especially when I cut the rail length doing the deck (with a layer of cloth under, it slide around heaps) ... better scissors had none of that hassle.
just gotta slow the cuts down and use the "sweet spot" on the scissors. the crap scissors you get about 2 inches of sweet cut per stroke, the good ones the whole 6 inch blade! the good ones definitely cut better, but not a new blank worth better if you're only doing a few boards here and there! haha (geek)

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Re: make stool, not war

Post by pirate_agenda » Sat Nov 10, 2012 1:52 pm

wingnut2443 wrote:
pirate_agenda wrote: :D and very timely ... I've got the 'forty one two' ready to laminate and its bloody raining so I'm thinking about using MEKP today >><<

also, with that step process, I can see why / how you'd get resin on your scissors ... :wink:
if you saw how messy my bay is, you'd probly understand even more :-o

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Re: make stool, not war

Post by ric_vidal » Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:06 am

wingnut2443 wrote:Point of clarity, I don't fold back the cloth, I meant to omit that bit, I use a brush to wet them out ...

RV, why the brush after squeegee? Don't think I have ever seen that anywhere, not saying its wrong, just curious as to why not just the pressure of the squeegee and the nice ' zzzz' sound it makes?
With the brush you can pull the glass more taught and get good contact with the foam. Also, you can get minimise any excess resin pooling in spots, the brush is just a real good finisher.

Try it, you can see how much you can still move the glass, also you can drag off any excess resin that may be sitting on the blank that is nigh on impossible to remove when set. And as I said yesterday, if you have any days of glass running onto the blank you can direct them back along along the cut line, where they can be removed during the process below.

All-in-all, done properly, there will be very little processing for the next step. And ALL board making is about processes.

The guy who showed me has very little work to do to prepare for the deck side. He simply tidies the free-lap edge with a hand held Surform blade, then goes over with a hand held Stanley blade. Great for areas around the nose and tail where you should have an overlap of glass that will need to be flattened before the next lamination.

I have seen some laminating factories baste the cut lap with resin and sand before they laminate the deck. As a result, I have also even seen boards where that baste is too hot a coat and it becomes visible.

Now, which do you think is easier?

The result you are after is a snug fit, remember there is no strength in resin per se, you only want the right amount, it is in the combination – FRP.

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Re: make stool, not war

Post by diggerdickson » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:20 am

guys, im loving this thread, even though its off topic, it sorta flows bloody well. It is more than okay to disagree with me ric, im just a beginner who is trying lots of ideas before settling down with one I like, so far my best glassing result was with wetting out the rails the way I did, then pulling tight the glass with the sqeazy thing till I got that beautiful zzzzzzzzz sound wingnut explained so well, then tucked my rails under nice and tight, the glass job came up nice on that one.

Im trying to get a piture of how your explaining your method, specially with the paint brush bit, but its not happening for me :oops:

Matticus, can wait to see the pics mate
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ric_vidal
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Re: make stool, not war

Post by ric_vidal » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:36 am

wingnut2443 wrote: mmm, interesting ... so, you squeegee, say the bottom, and do the laps under onto the deck, and THEN, you are going back over the whole bottom (as in this example) and using a brush to pull out the 'pooled' resin and down into the lap? Yes? That what you're saying?
Just use the brush on the rails, usually just on the underside… depends how tidy they look as to where you hit it. You can do things with a brush you just can't do with a squeegee as they conform better to the shape.

Primarily it is about having a nice clean transition from the lap to the blank and no excess resin.

I might see if I can video it.

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